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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Zentena
    Isn't the roll paper just Agfa?
    Sure is but at a much better price than dealing through Agfa, I think Tura can do that because of the volumes it works with.

    Clayton

  2. #12
    edz
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    Quote Originally Posted by claytume
    Sure is but at a much better price than dealing through Agfa, I think Tura can do that because of the volumes it works with.

    Clayton
    Tura can sell Agfa paper cheaper than Agfa because they want to--- and because in some cases have to in order to make a sale. Agfa does not even really want to bother cutting paper into individual sheets but only rolls. Agfa RA-4 paper, for instance, is no longer available from Agfa/Agfa Photo as sheets but only standardised rolls. Tura sell boxed Agfa, Fuji and Mitsubishi papers in sheets and rolls. Margins on film and paper are very good so there is a lot of room, especially in cut-down material, to make a profit.

    The market is, however, rapidly changing. Fomer "eastern block" players like Foma and Forte are now within the borders of the European Union. Total demand for film has been declining and the market and formats for photographic papers is in transition. Through the weak U.S. dollar and Kodak's global homogenization of pricing, their papers too have become attractive on the German market.

    Agfa C-41 negative material is private label boxes is now under the 1 EURO mark in the drugstore (e.g. DM Paradise KB-135/36 is, I think, 0.95 EURO in single packages and much cheaper in the larger boxes).
    Edward C. Zimmermann
    BSn R&D // http://www.nonmonotonic.net

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by edz
    Tura can sell Agfa paper cheaper than Agfa because they want to--- and because in some cases have to in order to make a sale. Agfa does not even really want to bother cutting paper into individual sheets but only rolls. Agfa RA-4 paper, for instance, is no longer available from Agfa/Agfa Photo as sheets but only standardised rolls. Tura sell boxed Agfa, Fuji and Mitsubishi papers in sheets and rolls. Margins on film and paper are very good so there is a lot of room, especially in cut-down material, to make a profit.

    The market is, however, rapidly changing. Fomer "eastern block" players like Foma and Forte are now within the borders of the European Union. Total demand for film has been declining and the market and formats for photographic papers is in transition. Through the weak U.S. dollar and Kodak's global homogenization of pricing, their papers too have become attractive on the German market.

    Agfa C-41 negative material is private label boxes is now under the 1 EURO mark in the drugstore (e.g. DM Paradise KB-135/36 is, I think, 0.95 EURO in single packages and much cheaper in the larger boxes).
    Anyone want to predict where this will go?

    I used to buy reasonable quantities of Forte roll paper but their prices went up and delivery was erratic so I moved to Tura whose prices and delivery have been excellent for the last few years.

    Will I be forced to buy Forte again?

    Incidently someone in the know told me the cost of producing photo paper was less than one tenth the retail price. I can believe it when I get Tura (which is Agfa) for less than a third of Agfa retail price. Both of them plus my supplier are still making money on the deal.

    Clayton

  4. #14

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    Hi Clayton !
    Do you want a list of "things" with retail prices unrelated to production prices ?
    Cars, computers, TV sets, and quite all manufactured goods....
    Even on services, the price tag reflects what the customer can pay, not the actual prices plus a "normal" benefit. Otherwise, every time you get a discount, the seller will loose money ;-) and disapear, if wwe follow what we have been told in school.
    I my opinion, the problem with Forte was that the benefit was not made at the factory but along the ath the product cross between them and you. I hope that buying from "near factory" like at Fotoimpex will turn Forte a profitable business and we will get our film and papers during a long time.....

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgesGiralt
    Hi Clayton !
    Do you want a list of "things" with retail prices unrelated to production prices ?
    Cars, computers, TV sets, and quite all manufactured goods....
    Even on services, the price tag reflects what the customer can pay, not the actual prices plus a "normal" benefit. Otherwise, every time you get a discount, the seller will loose money ;-) and disapear, if wwe follow what we have been told in school.
    I my opinion, the problem with Forte was that the benefit was not made at the factory but along the ath the product cross between them and you. I hope that buying from "near factory" like at Fotoimpex will turn Forte a profitable business and we will get our film and papers during a long time.....
    George

    yes I know what you're saying, it seems to me someone like Tura should be able to survive because there's enough margin for them to make money and still undercut retail.

    If what you're saying is right about Forte it's all the middlemen pulling these long established businesses down. So maybe, and they're probably doing this, a new distribution model is required with less consumed in the middle.

    Is this how J&C operates? Direct purchase from the factory and pass savings onto customers. To be worthwhile to the factory it would require large stock purchases.

    For me I'm worried the economics of using conventional roll paper will disappear and I'll have to start using inkjet.

    Clayton

  6. #16
    edz
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    Quote Originally Posted by claytume
    Anyone want to predict where this will go?
    Anyone got a good lead on this week's lotto numbers?

    Will I be forced to buy Forte again?
    Nobody forces YOU to buy any photographic materials from any vendor. We are not in China!

    Incidently someone in the know told me the cost of producing photo paper was less than one tenth the retail price.
    Depends upon how one caculates the "cost".. A large chunk of the cost of producing papers and other photographic materials is fixed in the cost of the facillity. The marginal costs of labour and input materials to produce a film are very very tiny. The problem is: these factories don't scale that well. The move of Kodak into their new coating facillity was part of getting the scale right and being able to better manage their resources.

    With factories like Efke or Forte the fixed non-labour costs are quite low and they've been working to slash their labour costs (scaling by labour). The main threat is the opportunity costs of continuning the operation. Argenta in Munich just as Stirling in Bombay found the value of their property significantly higher than the value as a production input.
    Edward C. Zimmermann
    BSn R&D // http://www.nonmonotonic.net

  7. #17
    edz
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    Quote Originally Posted by claytume
    George

    yes I know what you're saying, it seems to me someone like Tura should be able to survive because there's enough margin for them to make money and still undercut retail.
    Tura was NOT about undercutting retail. Their business was about putting film in OEM boxes.

    Is this how J&C operates? Direct purchase from the factory and pass savings onto customers. To be worthwhile to the factory it would require large stock purchases.
    That's also how Freestyle works. Efke, Forte and Foma is typically sold though shops that went direct. I think Foma wants a $10K USD order to get the juices flowing.. Since customers (like you) want to get the absolute cheapest materials they need to compete and press the manufacturers to keep prices down to maintain their margins since they must compete with Agfa, Fuji and Kodak which have much better developed products and refined distribution network . Agfa, Fuji and Kodak have, on the other hand, lower marginal costs in their production and higher reserves so its not really much of a contest... The big league players can always be cheaper!

    For Ekfe, Foma and Forte to survive they must redefine their products to do better what the mainline players (Agfa, Fuji, Kodak) don't or can't do. If they don't understand how to morph themselves into a nische then they will not survive.


    For me I'm worried the economics of using conventional roll paper will disappear and I'll have to start using inkjet.
    What't the issue? In the whole of the past century photographic productss and services have never been as inexpensive as they are today.

    Still too expensive..

    Then start using Inkjet.. print on recycled newsprint... And print less... Using less paper saves money!
    Edward C. Zimmermann
    BSn R&D // http://www.nonmonotonic.net

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fotohuis
    The situation at Tura is critical. Same story for Leica. Further I agree about the possibilities with RJR that it will be difficult for Tura to go on.

    Robert

    www.FotohuisRoVo.nl
    Robert

    can you direct me to a press release or source of your information, I've done some searching on the net and can't find anything.

    I contacted my supplier and he said there a no problems at all buying from Tura and he isn't aware of any problems.

    Clayton

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by edz
    Since customers (like you) want to get the absolute cheapest materials they need to compete and press the manufacturers to keep prices down to maintain their margins since they must compete with Agfa, Fuji and Kodak which have much better developed products and refined distribution network .

    What't the issue? In the whole of the past century photographic productss and services have never been as inexpensive as they are today.

    Still too expensive..

    Then start using Inkjet.. print on recycled newsprint... And print less... Using less paper saves money!
    Edward

    you're German right?

  10. #20

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    It's in the local German newspaper. (I am from the Netherlands but SPUR is also located near Düren so it's in this region bads news of course)

    Here is the link: [URL=http://www.aachener-zeitung.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=459766&_wo=Lokales<img title=[/URL]

    http://www.aachener-zeitung.de/sixcm...les<img title=

    Best regards,

    Robert

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