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  1. #1

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    RA-4 filtration problem

    I know this sounds goofy, but......
    I'm making some prints, and one of the negs has a Macbeth color checker in it. The light grays on the color checker are slightly Cyan on the print. To correct, I need to subtract 5 or 10 units of Magenta, but.....
    I CAN'T!!! My filter pack is 0 Magenta and 50 Yellow!!

    Fuji Crystal Archive Type C glossy paper
    Tetenal RA-4 room temperature chemistry.

    Now what???

  2. #2

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    Add cyan? But isn't cyan prints a symptom of something else?

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  4. #4
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    I've made quite a few color prints using the illumination provided by the light passing through a color transparency projected onto the model with a Hasselbad PCP-80 Projector, and every one required additional cyan filtration, due to the imbalance of the light (all photographed on AgfaColor 400, balanced for daylight).

    I wonder about the color balance of your negatives: What was the color temperature of the light used for their exposure (approximately), and what was the "balance" of the negative film?

    I've just worked with Fuji Crystal Archive, and it does take less filtration - both magenta and yellow - than my "old standby" Ilfocolor.

    It may be that you will need to decrease the color temperature of the exposure using yellow/ orange filtration.

    Wait..... After "proof reading" this ....

    You say that your prints have a "cyan cast"? To compensate, you would have to ADD 5-10cc of CYAN, not magenta. Remember this is a negative printing process... you must ADD to the color filtration to remove the same excess color from the print.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  5. #5

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    I wonder about the color balance of your negatives: What was the color temperature of the light used for their exposure (approximately), and what was the "balance" of the negative film?

    I've just worked with Fuji Crystal Archive, and it does take less filtration - both magenta and yellow - than my "old standby" Ilfocolor.

    It may be that you will need to decrease the color temperature of the exposure using yellow/ orange filtration.

    Wait..... After "proof reading" this ....

    You say that your prints have a "cyan cast"? To compensate, you would have to ADD 5-10cc of CYAN, not magenta. Remember this is a negative printing process... you must ADD to the color filtration to remove the same excess color from the print.[/QUOTE]

    The film was Kodak Ultra Color 400, 120 size. The shots are yellow daffodils with a black background, shot outdoors, mixed clouds & sun. Background was black mat board.

    What's got me wondering is, the flowers look pretty good. The 2 lightest gray squares of the Color Checker have the cyan cast. The white square looks fine & so do the other colors. Could UV light cause this? I know I've gotten a cast similar to this with a non-UV filtered Novatron strobe set-up and the brighteners in white paint (woodwork), but I'm not sure the Color Checker would do this as well.

    I'm going to try printing on some Kodak Supre Endura I've got & see what happens there. Also, I'll try mixing another batch of chemicals. This batch is 1 month old & used to about 1/2 capacity.

  6. #6
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Starr
    I wonder about the color balance of your negatives: What was the color temperature of the light used for their exposure (approximately), and what was the "balance" of the negative film?
    The film was Kodak Ultra Color 400, 120 size. The shots are yellow daffodils with a black background, shot outdoors, mixed clouds & sun. Background was black mat board.
    What's got me wondering is, the flowers look pretty good. The 2 lightest gray squares of the Color Checker have the cyan cast. The white square looks fine & so do the other colors. Could UV light cause this? I know I've gotten a cast similar to this with a non-UV filtered Novatron strobe set-up and the brighteners in white paint (woodwork), but I'm not sure the Color Checker would do this as well.
    Ah!! Yes, you could be running into UV fluorescence! - which will give you a cyan cast.

    I participated in a "turkey shoot" a while back (briefly!) where they were using Novatrons ... and they obviously were *not* UV corrected ... The colors were definitely cyan - casted and "out of whack". Difficult to print! I finally gave up on those. At that time, I used my Hasselblad "ProFlash" (Metz CT4) for a few exposures, and the colors were superb!
    I *love* my UV corrected DynaLites ( all Dynas are UV corrected).

    I've been searching for a *good* gray card ... In this search, I found a review of "cards", including the MacBeth Color Checker and it was reported that *some* of the panels were adversely affected (fluoresced) with UV- content lighting.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  7. #7
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    Dave;

    If you need cyan filtration, your original negative is either improperly exposed or developed. All color negative products are designed to work with red filtration only, for proper tone and color reproduction.

    It could be fluorescent lighting or bad processing, or it could be any one of a number of things, but whatever i is, something is seriously wrong with the original.

    PE

  8. #8
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer
    All color negative products are designed to work with red filtration only, for proper tone and color reproduction.
    Are you sure of this? Possibly true with an "additive" (RGB) system - but most dichroic heads in use now are "subtractive" ... (CYM... well OK .. K).

    I have never been able to balance out using pure magenta/ red filtration in 15 years of color printing - in either Color Negative (EP2/ RA4) or Direct Positive (R3/3000, P3/30) printing.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  9. #9

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    Using no magenta and having to add cyan is extremely unusual for RA4. Try rebleaching your negative. I am not certain if lueko-cyan can give this effect but underbleaching by either yourself or the lab sounds possible.

    If you take the negative to a pro lab they can check for retained silver...there should be none. If there is any retained silver the negative was not fully bleached.

  10. #10
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    Color papers are designed with the yellow layer on the bottom and are designed for a film with an orange color. This means that the blue and green speeds must be faster than red by the density of the film + a safety factor to prevent crosstalk.

    This results in an average filtration with tungsten light enlargers of 50R.

    If you are on the cyan side, something is wrong with your film or your enlarger etc.

    It is a tough call, but something is definitely wrong here.

    PE

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