Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 69,960   Posts: 1,523,079   Online: 986
      
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16
  1. #1

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Daventry, Northamptonshire, England
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    6,871

    Fuji Crystal Archive MP and Yellow Filtration- Advice Needed

    Maybe not a new thread entirely as a search of the forum reveals comments akin to what for me is a new experience.

    It appears in at least a couple of threads in the forum that people have experienced problems with Fuji paper in terms of it requiring almost no yellow filter.

    Well now that is just my problem. I had used Fuji Crystal Archive MP in the past without this issue then switched to Kodak Supra Endura and have returned to Fuji. I knew that I would have to re-calibrate my analyser ( Philips PCA061). Picking a suitable negative( Fuji Superia 400) I ran tests using less and less Y to get a perfect print but even at 5Y I noticed that my print still had a blue cast. This showed up primarily in the sky which had a blue colour in the print that just wasn't there in reality as the sky was a typical overcast grey. Other than the sky, I could probably just about put up with the cast as it is not that noticeable in the rest of the print. Why worry about a blue sky you may say but unfortunately it doesn't look like a genuine blue. It is at odds with what was obviously a grey overcast day.

    My question is what do I do if dialling in zero Y still doesn't eliminate the blue cast. I strongly suspect it won't eliminate it as I have some experience of how much a further reduction of 5Y has on a blue cast.

    To complicate matters further, I have already had to dial in C for neutral density as the exposure times even at the smallest aperture of f16 are less than the analyser caters for. I had this problem in the past and had eliminated it via a lower wattage bulb.

    If as I suspect, getting rid of the blue cast involves using C then this becomes an active colour filter rather than a neutral density filter.

    If having got to 0Y and then making the C dial on the analyser an active colour filter, how do I then cater for exposure which is what the C dial on the analyser normally is used for.

    I would also be interested to hear why the Fuji paper needs such low Y settings but primarily my interest is in "fixing" the problem.

    As far as exposure is concerned I presumably could switch to my 80mm lens and/or switch to the 6x6 light box setting( Durst M605) but of course this wouldn't cure the blue cast problem

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,930
    Images
    65
    This means that the paper has very low blue speed and requires cyan and magenta filtration to fix the problem. This type of paper problem may also lead to yellows contaminated with either magenta or cyan or both, making yellows dull and lifeless.

    It is also much more difficult to adjust the filter pack with papers like this, even if no other problem takes place.

    Color paper is balanced for an average 50 red with the orange masked color negative in the beam to prevent exactly this problem. Any Kodak paper with less than about 1.0 log E blue speed over the others is rejected as waste.

    If it were a Kodak paper, I would return it as defective.

    PE

  3. #3
    Mick Fagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,816
    Images
    29
    I'm using Fuji Crystal Archive Type 80 L (lustre) this is my second box and it's interesting to note that my first box had these filtrations:-

    Reala M106 Y125

    Kodak 160 NC M96 Y104

    On the first box I used I was down to M50 Y15 printing from the 160 NC negatives, which was something I was uncertain about as to the correctness until I realised that the filtration so low appeared to be normal.

    The second box I am currently using was bought on 04-03-06 and is nearly empty so next month I'll see what the Fuji gods have in store.

    Mick.

    PS- PE I tried the MGIV in the bck of the F3 last weekend but stuffed the exposures with a light leak, I'll repeat in a couple of weeks.

  4. #4
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,930
    Images
    65
    Mick;

    Endura paper exposed in-camera with proper filtration for daylight will give good results as well at about ISO 25. Bujor B on Photo Net has reported good results. Use my cross process and get reversal prints.

    PE

  5. #5

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Daventry, Northamptonshire, England
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    6,871
    Mick and PE. Thanks for the replies. I was hoping that a few others might have confirmed or otherwise their recent experiences with Fuji Crystal Archive MP. We must have more than two colour neg users. I'd be very interested to hear if any others have noticed an appreciable drop in the amount of Yellow filtration in recently bought Fuji Crystal Archive MP paper( lustre).

    Since posting, I have attempted to make more prints and something interesting has emerged.

    Prints are from two Fuji films that I have developed myself using the same process and chemicals as previous films where the Y filtration needed for the prints was considerably higher.

    One film was Fuji Superia 100 and exposed in my wife's Olympus compact. Of 10 prints only 5 required any Y filtration, ranging from 2 to 10. The other 5 required 0Y and of these, at least two prints were still too blue. In all cases the M filtration was between 20 and 30.

    The other film was Fuji Superia 400 exposed in my Pentax MZ7 and of these I have
    only printed 5. In all cases the Y filtration was into double figures of between 10 and 15 and the M filtration was between 30 and 35.

    All were shot at the same time in dull,overcast conditions in Prague with snow flurries and some snow on the ground in some shots.

    So this seems to reflect Mick's findings of 15Y and it looks as if ( hopefully)the prints from the Fuji 400 film will be OK albeit with low Y filtration but at least two prints from the Fuji 100 will require M and C filtration to correct the blue castand presumably a complete re-calibration of the analyser which for the sake of a couple of prints is a complete PITA.

    If I decide to attempt a re-calibration, using M and C instead of M and Y then presumably I will have to use the Y as the "redundant" dial on the analyser for exposure.- normally the C dial acts as the exposure indicator.

    If the test neg was correct at 6Y and 30M then can anyone help with how I convert this to M and C filtration. My analyser is the Phillips PCA061. Or do I simply have to start again with M and C guesses until I achieve the same print?

    I'd like to hear from anyone using Fuji paper who has experienced the same phenomenon of having very low Y filtration or better still anyone who needed to correct by changing to M and C instead.

    I am sure Fuji never intended users to have to use M and C instead of the usual M and Y for printing from colour negs.

    Incidentally I have written to Fuji UK's technical department describing the problem. When I get a reply, I'll share it with APUG. It may help others as well as me and its content will hopefully tell us about Fuji's committment to analogue users

    Any comments welcome.

    Thanks

    Pentaxuser

  6. #6
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,930
    Images
    65
    If you get variations across Fuji film types, it indicates that there is a problem with the relative speeds in those films. So it might be a film problem as well.

    If it happens within one roll of film, then it could be a color temperature problem of the light source (daylight vs tungsten can cause this type of problem for example).

    If it happens with one negative over several batches of paper, then it is a paper problem.

    Of course, unless you do all of the variations, you cannot eliminate the possibility that it is a combination of all of the above.

    I've seen batches of negatve materials out there with big variations in relative speeds (both paper and film), and the mfgrs just let it go and rely on the customer to rebalance their exposures. That is not good. The negatives that I have are stable in color balance over the 50+ the years worth of them that I have, and the print exposures are stable at about 50R for that same time period.

    I use a lot of color paper, but rarely use Fuji.

    PE

  7. #7
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Toronto-Ontario
    Shooter
    Med. Format RF
    Posts
    4,625
    Images
    14
    I know there is nothing wrong with the fuji paper.

    If you have zeroed out the yellow, simply increase equal amounts of cyan and green filter and you will in effect add yellow

    yellow is the combination of equal amounts of green and red. with three filters C, Y, M on your dichroic head you can make any combination work.

    It may be time to inspect the dichroics in your enlarger?

    With millions of feet of paper being manufactured by fuji I seriously doubt it is a paper problem.

    Bulb colour tempature could also be a problem here , as they are ready to go they will suddenly change Kelvin temp.

    When printing various emulsions from Kodak and Ilford and Fuji, we are constantly changing our exposure values for the different stocks.

  8. #8
    Sparky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,100
    I'm guessing the bulb in your enlarger is fairly low wattage and/or is old... that would definitely add a LOT of yellow. Just crank up the C and M to compensate. Should be no problem.

  9. #9
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,930
    Images
    65
    I would agree with the fact that the Fuji paper should not be bad, and that an old bulb will change color temperature.

    I am puzzled by the fact that two people seem to be observing a similar problem involving Fuji paper though.

    Another thing is this... I have more than 50 years of color negatives printed at exactly the same exposure onto color paper to make proofs. They are within 10R or less than that of having the same color balance. You see, color negative film is made to the same rigid specifications for speed that transparency film is. So, over the long haul, negatives should be printable with almost the same color balance just as transparency film can be shot with little deviation in color balance (less than 10 R).

    The entire design of color neg/pos is done to prevent the use of cyan filtration or the use of 3 filters in the beam at one time. This is to simplify the printing process and is also a design factor in the paper, which has the yellow layer on the bottom. If something goes wrong with this, either in the film or paper, then the color prints that result will suffer in some respect.

    So, cranking up C may work, but at what cost, I cannot say in the final print.

    PE

  10. #10
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Toronto-Ontario
    Shooter
    Med. Format RF
    Posts
    4,625
    Images
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer
    I would agree with the fact that the Fuji paper should not be bad, and that an old bulb will change color temperature.

    I am puzzled by the fact that two people seem to be observing a similar problem involving Fuji paper though.

    Another thing is this... I have more than 50 years of color negatives printed at exactly the same exposure onto color paper to make proofs. They are within 10R or less than that of having the same color balance. You see, color negative film is made to the same rigid specifications for speed that transparency film is. So, over the long haul, negatives should be printable with almost the same color balance just as transparency film can be shot with little deviation in color balance (less than 10 R).

    The entire design of color neg/pos is done to prevent the use of cyan filtration or the use of 3 filters in the beam at one time. This is to simplify the printing process and is also a design factor in the paper, which has the yellow layer on the bottom. If something goes wrong with this, either in the film or paper, then the color prints that result will suffer in some respect.

    So, cranking up C may work, but at what cost, I cannot say in the final print.

    PE
    Though not printing for 50 years, I have been printing colour seriously and daily since 1976. I have never seen the 10 red variance correction factor on colour negative film. in fact it would be a miricale to have this happen in my opinion.

    Working with the cyan filter with either the yellow or the magenta wheel at zero is not a day to day situation with any colour paper I have used. Kodak, Konica, Ilford, Fuji , Agfa. Usually this indicates a bad bulb or bad dichroics but as sparky noted crank up the cyan and magenta and you will indeed get yellow correction.

    The tolerences in making colour paper is way beyond the scope of most of us practicioners. I am only grateful for the consistencys of product supplied by the major manufactures of photographic emulsions.

    There is a saying in photographic lab culture ** operator error ** . Not untill any and all variables are scoured out will a printer in any major lab worldwide, blame the paper that we use.
    In fact there is an operator in our town presently who is suggesting that Fuji Crystal Archive Flex material will not work. He is experiencing a red cast on image area and cannot figure the problem. It has been pointed out that it is a latent image pre flash that is causing the problem by various sources myself included. This operator dismisses this and insists it is fuji's problem. I am quite thankful he does not work with me.*operator error*

    The problems that occur are usually one not related to the emulsions themselves and need perservernce to find.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin