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  1. #21

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    Nick. Thanks for very quick reply. It's possible, I suppose, that the grey negs pack with the analyser have changed over time. I have no way of knowing how old they are.

    I have looked at the print strips from the grey neg again in daylight and they are definitely not grey, although as I said they look grey under the intense white light of the enlarger lamp at full aperture.

    The paper is a replacement from Fuji and is only a few weeks old. Its the new Fuji Crystal Archive. I previously had Fuji Crystal Arcive MP but was having problems with the yellow filtration. To get the colour balance right I was using little or no Y. On the same negs I switched to Kodak paper which I still had and the problem disappeared. Fuji asked to see copies of my prints. I sent them copies of Fuji paper prints and the Kodak print. They weren't able to give an answer which explained the problem but sent the new paper which seemed to be free of the issue of needing very low values of Y on the dichroic head.

    So am I right in concluding that it is unlikely to be a paper fault. The chemicals are Paterson and fairly new. I use a replenishment system so the developer is being replaced quite frequently.

    The white part of the test print seems to be completely white - no sign of any grey or other cast.

    My plan of action now is to:Try making up completely fresh developer. If that doesn't get me to a grey print then I can switch to Kodak paper.

    If none of this produces success then I'll have to get a grey card and do a fresh neg. If the grey neg has faded would this result in a print which is a grey/green colour and also result in the 3000 calibrating to a level which produces an overexposed print?

    After my calibration to my grey/green neg but at 0.55 I then printed my coastal scene. I did this by using the fully intergrated system which as the manual suggests involves using the clear spot probe but a diffuser under the lamp. I used the Paterson diffuser and not the one supplied with the 3000. They look the same although the Paterson one may be slightly more diffused. Is not using the 3000's diffuser square under the lens likely to result in the print problem? I wouldn't have thought so.

    I used full integration as this is all I know. My Paterson analyser does it all by full intergration.

    I could try semi- integrated measuring by replacing the clear spot probe with the diffuser cover and taking one or more measures from the neg. Could it be that because deep blue predominates the scene from sea and sky then under full intergration this has resulted in a predominance of blue in the print and a slight overexposure?

    Ah well, back to the drawing board.

    pentaxuser

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser

    After my calibration to my grey/green neg but at 0.55 I then printed my coastal scene. I did this by using the fully intergrated system which as the manual suggests involves using the clear spot probe but a diffuser under the lamp. I used the Paterson diffuser and not the one supplied with the 3000. They look the same although the Paterson one may be slightly more diffused. Is not using the 3000's diffuser square under the lens likely to result in the print problem? I wouldn't have thought so.

    I used full integration as this is all I know. My Paterson analyser does it all by full intergration.

    I could try semi- integrated measuring by replacing the clear spot probe with the diffuser cover and taking one or more measures from the neg. Could it be that because deep blue predominates the scene from sea and sky then under full intergration this has resulted in a predominance of blue in the print and a slight overexposure?
    Okay if I understand you did the following

    1) Programmed the unit with the spot probe and acheived the target 0.55 or close enough to it.

    2) You then switched to a diffuser and tried to analyze. I'm guessing you didn't program a new channel for this. Right?

    You need a channel programmed for each mode. Once you've got the unit programmed with the spot probe then leave the settings alone and switch to a new channel. Program this channel using the perfect print method. You've got the filter settings etc at this point so it should be quick enough. Then use this channel for when you want to use the diffuser.

    I'm not sure what issues the other diffuser will cause you. It might pass light differently. Might not be neutral.

    Something is up if you can get a good white on the test strip but not a good grey. I think you've said you're using room temperture chemicals? Maybe PE could pipe in on what happens when you have too cold a developer.

    Try using the spot mode to measure. It's not that hard. It does take a touch longer with simple negatives but it will handle complicated negatives better. So in the end you save time IMHO.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Zentena
    Okay if I understand you did the following

    1) Programmed the unit with the spot probe and acheived the target 0.55 or close enough to it.

    2) You then switched to a diffuser and tried to analyze. I'm guessing you didn't program a new channel for this. Right?

    You need a channel programmed for each mode. Once you've got the unit programmed with the spot probe then leave the settings alone and switch to a new channel. Program this channel using the perfect print method. You've got the filter settings etc at this point so it should be quick enough. Then use this channel for when you want to use the diffuser.

    I'm not sure what issues the other diffuser will cause you. It might pass light differently. Might not be neutral.

    Something is up if you can get a good white on the test strip but not a good grey. I think you've said you're using room temperture chemicals? Maybe PE could pipe in on what happens when you have too cold a developer.

    Try using the spot mode to measure. It's not that hard. It does take a touch longer with simple negatives but it will handle complicated negatives better. So in the end you save time IMHO.
    Thanks Nick. The answers to your questions are: to Q1 Yes; to Q2 Yes and yes. I use a Jobo CPE 2 at 35 degrees C. There is a thermometer at either end and both read identically.I think we can rule out a temp problem with the developer.

    So if I want to try fully intergrated measuring then given that the grey neg calibration gives YMD values that gets me close to what I think would be the perfect "coastal print" i.e a little less blue and a little less exposure, I now choose another channel and guess how much extra Y on the dichroic head dial and how much less exposure to give and then when I arrive at the perfect print, I then key the head filtration and exposure into the 3000 which will give me another set of Y M and D values in that channel, hopefully making it OK for neg which lend themselves to fully intergrated readings.

    I then need to be able to recognise those negs which do not lend themselves to full integration and use semi-integration for which I also need to programme a channel.

    The same is true of achieving warm prints. Here at least the F Schultz article recommends what you do with the Y M and D values to achieve this.

    Presumably having gone to the trouble of calibrating for the grey neg using the spot probe, I could try to achieve the perfect "coastal print" by using the first channel set up for the grey neg spot.

    If I am right then this is unknown territory for me. The manual covers spot reading but only in a peremptory fashion using a portrait neg. For semi- integrated measuring the manual uses a crowd picture and shows where to measure. Most negs are not like this.

    In the neg in question I have only one face of any size(the skin tone looks very accurate or certainly how I like it), the rest is blue water(45%), lighter blue sky(12%) and rocks, both dark and light(30%).

    What areas should I spot analyse to get as accurate a colour balance and exposure as possible? As I said before the print I have produced is a little dark and a little too blue but only slightly so.

    Of course all the above depends on getting a grey neg print which is grey.

    I may as well change the diffuser to the one with the 3000. It can't hurt and could improve things if diffusers are designed to be compatible with the analyser.

    Thanks

    pentaxuser

  4. #24

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    It overexposed because the diffuser cut some of the light out. Won't hurt to program a channel for the diffuser. Just put the grey negative in. Analyze it the same you did for the programming [with the spot probe right?] then without changing any settings on the enlarger switch channels on the analyzer. Hit the buttons to program the perfect negative. Then make a grey test strip to check. With some luck you should be very close to the target numbers. That should give you a channel that handles the diffuser better.

    On to the coastal negative.

    "In the neg in question I have only one face of any size(the skin tone looks very accurate or certainly how I like it), the rest is blue water(45%), lighter blue sky(12%) and rocks, both dark and light(30%)."

    If it was me I'd choose a spot in each of those.

    1) Skin tone

    2) Blue water

    3) Sky

    4) light rocks

    5) Dark rocks

    You can use up to eight spots. The person in the negative I'd pick some of thier clothes for #6. For #7 I think I'd go back and hit the sky and the skin tone again.

    Any negative that is dominant with one colour can cause problems. Worse any one that the important thing isn't filling the frame will cause problems.

    http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.ph...fdb98e9b417f16

    That link claims blue might be a chemical issue. At least it gives you something to consider.

  5. #25
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    The negative itself does NOT have to be a "perfect" grey. A test strip obtained from any uniformly distributed close-to grey negative that prints out as a perf--- or rather acceptable grey ... the same densities for each of the color layers: .55 Magenta; .55 Yellow; .55 cyan ... and therefore .55 overall density ... will be useful in printing; mainly in establishing the stability of the process, with emphasis on the chemistry.

    The application of an "Average Grey" channel depends on the the theory that most scenes recorded on color negative, or reversal film will AVERAGE, out to be .55 Magenta/ Yellow/ Cyan.

    I would suggest the process described in Section 14 of the ColorStar 3000 manual, "Reprogramming With the Grey Test Negative."
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  6. #26

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    Thanks Ed and Nick. Tonight I discovered that most of the problem of getting to a grey print lay with exhausted chemicals. I had made up a fresh batch of developer to see if the prints from this dev were different before throwing away or not the older developer. I had been having difficulties with needing very low Y or even C in some negs. I have a previous thread on this. Anyway at the time the difference between old and new appeared to be marginal but I thought I'd use the new developer anyway. Of course time has gone by, the older dev has become older and stupidly I didn't throw way the older dev. So I discovered tonight that I was in fact using the older dev when I swopped dev. After changing I was getting close to grey at my first attempt.

    I have had to break off because Wednesday night is pub( bar) night with the neighbours but things are looking much more promising. Thanks for advice on where to spot on the coastal neg.

    I'll keep you informed of progress but I have a much better feeling about the likelihood of success.

    pentaxuser

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