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  1. #11
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    .. Ed, having designed color negative films, I can show how reversal films lose detail when printed and it is the same reason that reversal films are not used in motion picture production. They do not dupe well due to the physics and math of the system (reversal - reversal).
    Interesting. Can you be specific about WHERE this "exhibit" - and the following information about "160" film making "good" prints is located?

    The work on Cibachrome may be outstanding, but does it match the original color? Detail across the tone scale? No, it does not due to 'image compression'.
    Frankly, Scarlet ... If I get an *outstanding* image, I don't give a damn about the "tone scale", "compression" or even the "original" color.

    *Outstanding* would, and WILL be good enough for me.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  2. #12
    copake_ham's Avatar
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    siorai,

    As you can see, we are a wonderfully harmonious group.

    And as soon as the brawl ends we will get back to your original query.

  3. #13
    naturephoto1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copake_ham View Post
    siorai,

    As you can see, we are a wonderfully harmonious group.

    And as soon as the brawl ends we will get back to your original query.
    Gee George,

    This is nothing compared to the confrontations and disagreements that we sometimes have here at APUG. But our disagreements are mild compared to some on other websites. Things usually settle down from our disagreements however.

    Rich
    Richard A. Nelridge
    http://www.nelridge.com

  4. #14
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach View Post
    Interesting. Can you be specific about WHERE this "exhibit" - and the following information about "160" film making "good" prints is located?


    Frankly, Scarlet ... If I get an *outstanding* image, I don't give a damn about the "tone scale", "compression" or even the "original" color.

    *Outstanding* would, and WILL be good enough for me.
    Ed;

    I really can't understand the first comment regarding "exhibit" and "160". I made no comments about that.

    Basically it is a matter of multiplying two curves together which in themselves are cubic splines. In negative films, one curve is really a straight line, but in reversal films they are both true splines with a toe and shoulder. Therefore you are multiplying the slopes of the two curves.

    The result is as follows:

    Lets take a red flower with small black detail in it. A poppy would be a good subject. Taken on a negative film and printed, you see the red with black detail, but taken on a slide film and you see what is called "cyan undercut" which lowers the richness of the black detail while making the red richer. Good and bad.

    Now, print that onto Ciba/Ilfochrome and the black detail almost entirely vanishes. The undercut is multiplied (or the data is compressed depending on viewpoint) and the reds become even richer.

    So, it is, as you point out, a matter of opinion. Do you want an accurate rendering, or do you want an overdone rendering. This is the typical question with reversal-reversal reproduction and results in the fact that motion picture producers will not use this system for production. They use neg-pos to prevent the 'dupey' look of multigeneration prints.

    Now, if you disagree, here is an offer. I will give you and 8 hour free course in color system engineering if you should ever drop by Rochester! You need it. I should probably do the 40 hour course, but your head might explode! I don't mean anything bad by that. Mine almost did the first time I got into this too.

    PE

  5. #15
    copake_ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post
    Gee George,

    This is nothing compared to the confrontations and disagreements that we sometimes have here at APUG. But our disagreements are mild compared to some on other websites. Things usually settle down from our disagreements however.

    Rich
    Rich,

    I know, but the poor OP was just asking for some basic color film advice and now, OMG....

    Do you think he can handle this? I mean, it's getting near to Halloween and all of us Crazy Aunts are coming out of the attic! :o :o

  6. #16
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Nah, its April Fool!

    And watch out for the funny uncle named Foley.

    PE

  7. #17
    copake_ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Nah, its April Fool!

    And watch out for the funny uncle named Foley.

    PE
    Well, he's not my type.

    But actually, PE, maybe a basic "primer" PM (i.e. "off line") from you to the OP would help?

    Heck, he just wants to know whether to start with 'chromes or print negatives. And I think you're about the best qualified here to do that!

  8. #18
    naturephoto1's Avatar
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    Hi PE,

    For those of us that shoot with transparencies regularly, we are quite aware of the limited exposure range to record our images. That is why we shoot accordingly for composition, subject matter, and use Grad ND filters (1-3 stop) when needed (and possible). We realize that we can usually only safely record 3 1/2 to 4 stops and we critically expose to hold highlights (frequently using a spot meter) and let the dark areas go black.

    Rich
    Richard A. Nelridge
    http://www.nelridge.com

  9. #19
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Ok, I see where Ed is coming from with the 160 comment. The context threw me a bit as did the 'exhibit' comment. I posted these a few weeks back Ed. They are here on APUG and also on PN. The thread on PN has "armchair" in the title and was started by a moderator, James Dainis. I forget the title here on APUG. I hate to waste space re-posting these.

    With the latitude of negative film, there is about 2 stops under and 2 stops overexposure latitude, minimum. Prints made from these negatives clearly show this.

    But, when you get right down to it, it is a matter of opinion. The interesting thing is that no motion picture would ever be filmed using a reversal film, and that is due to both latitude and accuracy of tone and color. I say, use what works.

    Now, as to the OP, if he wants prints, then a negative film is best for him, but if he wants to project them, then slides are best. Again though, a discriminating eye, developed by testing various films will be the only way to come up with a useful answer for any individual.

    PE

  10. #20
    copake_ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    ...
    Now, as to the OP, if he wants prints, then a negative film is best for him, but if he wants to project them, then slides are best. Again though, a discriminating eye, developed by testing various films will be the only way to come up with a useful answer for any individual.

    PE
    There is key comment, thanks PE.

    OP, you need to tell folks "WHY" you want to shoot color before you ask which film to use.

    A good "rough" division is b/w negative print film and positive "chromes". Nuances of either begin after that "threshold" question.

    One is NOT better than the other - but what you want to achieve will inform which direction you go.

    This is not to say that your decision is absolute. Although I've mainly "migrated" from my prior emphasis on chromes to shooting print negatives - I still have a bunch of Fuji 50 Velvia chrome sitting in the freezer, as well as some Kodak Ektacrhome Extra Color 100.

    These rolls "roughly" match the number of remaining prepaid "mailers" for each that I have.

    If I were to start now, though, I would probably just do print negative film. It's a changing world out there with all kinds of film. But I would not nowadays go as "long" in my freezer with chromes as I would with print negatives.

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