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  1. #21
    jd callow's Avatar
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    I've printed a fair amount of Kodak and Fuji neither seemed to me to be noticeably different in sensitivity. One might be 1 or 20 points off of the other, but both produce excellent photographs. Kodak Portra might be slightly better than CA type P for portrait work (subjective opinion) and or really tough negs, and Ultra is about the same as Type C. The palettes are slightly different (really slight) in that kodak is a little ‘earthier’ and or CA is a bit more ‘plastic.’ Overall kodak might be ever so slightly easier or more forgiving and is certainly a better match for NC and 100T films (I don’t shoot VC and I dismantled my darkroom before I could do much with UC films.).

    My last batch of either paper was bought from B&H about this time last year. I may not have used the reformulated CA.

    ymmv

    *

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by dslater View Post
    Yes - but doesn't that mean they were shot under different lighting conditions and the differences reflect a real difference in the light which you may or may not want to compensate for?

    Dan
    I'm not sure what the different reasons were, but there's been quite a few times that I've had to use different filter values on different frames from the same roll. I'm sure that some of the times it was from different lighting conditions. I some instances it was aerial photography done in daylight. It could have been from different angles and direction of the sun changing the way the light refracted through the atmosphere (and possibly changing the amount of UV that hit the film). As far as it being something I may or may not want to compensate for, it was a matter of the prints being acceptable. I used to do custom color printing for professional photographers

    Maybe being slightly under or over exposed can cause a little bit of a color shift with some films, or maybe I used a long exposure time with a particularly dark neg instead of opening the aperture another stop, and the long exposure time caused a slight color shift. With studio lighting, there might be a need for slightly different filter values with the same lighting set up and same roll of film but different location. Different surfaces reflect light differently and can cause a different ambient hue.

    When I first started to positive printing, I figured that once I had the filtration dialed in for a batch of paper, I shouldn't have to change it if I wanted the print to match the transparency. It didn't work that way though, I would print one trans and it would match perfectly, then print another trans and it wouldn't match without adjusting the filtration (with both R prints and Cibachromes). It definitely wasn't due to anything in my work flow. My printing was consistent and very repeatable.

    Film and print paper 'see' light (and colors) different than the eyes do.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser View Post
    What I did notice however was that the filtration pack seemed more critical than I would have expected. I did the same part of a neg with neutral grey in it as 4 prints with slightly different packs and found that as little as 2M ( Durst 605M dichroic head )made the difference between a noticeably magenta cast and the correct neutral.
    It's been several years since I printed on Fuji paper, but I remember that at the time, Fuji paper needed less filtration than Kodak and was more sensitive to small increment changes. It only stands to reason though that if it requires less filtration, then it's going to show more shift with smaller changes. For example, 2M is a 10% change from 20M, but it's only a 4% change from 50M.

  4. #24
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Not so
    2 magenta change has the same effect in colour at 50 80 or 20. It is not based as a %.

    A good colour corrector can make 1/2pt colour corrections.
    Magenta is the most noticable colour on a nuetral grey therefore small changes are quite extreme.
    Right now my packs are aroung 30y, 30magenta for a good starting pack with fuji crystal archive.
    Quote Originally Posted by max_ebb View Post
    It's been several years since I printed on Fuji paper, but I remember that at the time, Fuji paper needed less filtration than Kodak and was more sensitive to small increment changes. It only stands to reason though that if it requires less filtration, then it's going to show more shift with smaller changes. For example, 2M is a 10% change from 20M, but it's only a 4% change from 50M.

  5. #25
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Bob;

    The rate of change of color speed with respect to filtration change is also related to the saturation of the dyes formed and the bandwidth of the spectral sensitizing dyes used in the emulsions.

    All of this can be balanced off to give papers that 'move fast' or 'move slowly' with respect to a change in cc filtration.

    Endura is balanced in that respect such that a 0.2 density change in magenta filtration gives a 0.2 speed change in the emulsion. However, at a contrast of 2.5 in the grade 2 paper, this is visually mulitiplied by the dye itself at every density which confounds the evaluation of the change.

    The result, on average, is that even though a 0.2 density change = 0.2 speed change, the 'apparent' color change can be higher than 0.4 density units depending on color and density.

    This is also affected by the film being printed. A high saturation negative film will tend to magnify this change.

    PE

  6. #26
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    PE
    My experience has always been that once an image is within a couple of points of nuetral grey balance. No matter if the y/m numbers are high or low based on source negative. A minor change in filtration is significant and repeatable.
    I never would say to myself , Self the balance is 80y 60m therefore I think I need 2pt magenta correction to nuetralize the grey building, but since I am so high in filtration I will make it 8pts.
    This has never happened to me in 30 years of colour dichroic printing.
    I have always used normal grade kodak papers and now the normal grade Fuji papers. So in my experience within a certain range of papers 2pts is 2pts.
    I have noticed lateley though with in a paticular image that certain colours will respond more or less to local colour changes . I find the reds very responsive to magenta adjustments where I find yellows slow to change.
    When I am trying to nuetralize a grey object , very slight adjustments are very easy to see.
    Not sure of the reasoning for this other than the Strength of certain colours over others.
    Bob


    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Bob;

    The rate of change of color speed with respect to filtration change is also related to the saturation of the dyes formed and the bandwidth of the spectral sensitizing dyes used in the emulsions.

    All of this can be balanced off to give papers that 'move fast' or 'move slowly' with respect to a change in cc filtration.

    Endura is balanced in that respect such that a 0.2 density change in magenta filtration gives a 0.2 speed change in the emulsion. However, at a contrast of 2.5 in the grade 2 paper, this is visually mulitiplied by the dye itself at every density which confounds the evaluation of the change.

    The result, on average, is that even though a 0.2 density change = 0.2 speed change, the 'apparent' color change can be higher than 0.4 density units depending on color and density.

    This is also affected by the film being printed. A high saturation negative film will tend to magnify this change.

    PE

  7. #27
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Bob;

    I don't disagree. I would add though that if you had printed with Radiance paper or Cibachrome, with a contrast of 1.0, you would change your opinion.

    The difference in gradiant between 2.5 and 1.0 in the paper contrast changes visual response by about 2x and therefore your opinion might differ.

    Also, if you used a grade 2 and a grade 3 color paper, you might have had occasion to see the difference between the shift in color by these two contrast grades.

    The overlap in spectral senstivities in Endura cause it to move both B and G speeds with a change in G filtration (M). This tends to mute repsonse as I described above.

    PE

  8. #28
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Never thought about the ciba balance change , but I can see that you would be right.
    I vary rarely change my balance for cibachrome therefore I do not notice the difference.
    In ciba printing unlike neg printing the photographer generally supplies a colour corrected transparancey which is usually same film stock as the other images being printed in any given day. Once a primary balance has been established the printer only needs to do minor corrections to colour/density if any.
    In negative printing there are so many film stocks and variences in negative preparation that a day's printing is all over the place with colour balance settings and density. Unless of course we are printing a full shoot done under controlled conditions.
    For ciba now I am working with PS and a calibrated paper,moniter,process to a 21step grey balance. Most of the work once calibrated is in adjusting curves and adjusting local colour to work one main colour off background or secondary/complimentary colours.
    I have mainly worked in the past with normal grade papers and now in colour work in PS on our Lambda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Bob;

    I don't disagree. I would add though that if you had printed with Radiance paper or Cibachrome, with a contrast of 1.0, you would change your opinion.

    The difference in gradiant between 2.5 and 1.0 in the paper contrast changes visual response by about 2x and therefore your opinion might differ.

    Also, if you used a grade 2 and a grade 3 color paper, you might have had occasion to see the difference between the shift in color by these two contrast grades.

    The overlap in spectral senstivities in Endura cause it to move both B and G speeds with a change in G filtration (M). This tends to mute repsonse as I described above.

    PE

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Not so
    2 magenta change has the same effect in colour at 50 80 or 20. It is not based as a %.
    Not so? What's not so? I was referring to my experience with Fuji paper vs Kodak paper back in the 90's. The Fuji paper required less filtration, and smaller changes in the filtration made a bigger difference compared to the Kodak paper. The filtration changes in terms of a percentage of the total filtration were about equal. This is not an opinion that can be deemed right or wrong by some know it all, it is IN FACT my experience. For you to say "not so" is like you saying that you wore Levis in the 90's and me saying "no you didn't, that's not true"

    How much comparative printing did you do with Fuji and Kodak paper from 93 to 98? I did 1000's of prints with both. I would hope that if your going tell me I'm full of shit, that you would at least have a significant amount of experience with the materials I'm referring too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    A good colour corrector can make 1/2pt colour corrections.
    With my current Beseler dichro color head, printing on Kodak Ultra paper, I would defy you or anybody else to detect a difference with a 1/2pt filtration change, even with magenta (to say you could detect a 1/2pt change in yellow would just be ridiculous). With just 2 prints you'd have a 50/50 chance of guessing correctly, so let's say I printed five prints at one filtration, and then printed five more with a 1/2pt change in magenta (+ or -). There's no way that you or anyone else could detect which five are the 1/2pt higher or lower magenta value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Magenta is the most noticable colour on a nuetral grey therefore small changes are quite extreme.
    Really, no kidding? Of course changes in magenta are extreme compared to changes in yellow. Tell me something else I already know. Your attitude seems to be a bit condescending. I didn't just start color printing last week.

  10. #30
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Take a chill pill
    I would be willing to bet you that I have printed 10x the amount of colour prints than you. In fact making 7 30x40 colour murals on FCA today as we speak. What are you doing?
    As well if you can't see 1/2 pt colour change you wouldn't cut in my shop.
    Back in the time you are referring to 1000 prints were a months work , grow up .
    I didn't say you were full of shit. but if the shoe fits.


    Quote Originally Posted by max_ebb View Post
    Not so? What's not so? I was referring to my experience with Fuji paper vs Kodak paper back in the 90's. The Fuji paper required less filtration, and smaller changes in the filtration made a bigger difference compared to the Kodak paper. The filtration changes in terms of a percentage of the total filtration were about equal. This is not an opinion that can be deemed right or wrong by some know it all, it is IN FACT my experience. For you to say "not so" is like you saying that you wore Levis in the 90's and me saying "no you didn't, that's not true"

    How much comparative printing did you do with Fuji and Kodak paper from 93 to 98? I did 1000's of prints with both. I would hope that if your going tell me I'm full of shit, that you would at least have a significant amount of experience with the materials I'm referring too.



    With my current Beseler dichro color head, printing on Kodak Ultra paper, I would defy you or anybody else to detect a difference with a 1/2pt filtration change, even with magenta (to say you could detect a 1/2pt change in yellow would just be ridiculous). With just 2 prints you'd have a 50/50 chance of guessing correctly, so let's say I printed five prints at one filtration, and then printed five more with a 1/2pt change in magenta (+ or -). There's no way that you or anyone else could detect which five are the 1/2pt higher or lower magenta value.



    Really, no kidding? Of course changes in magenta are extreme compared to changes in yellow. Tell me something else I already know. Your attitude seems to be a bit condescending. I didn't just start color printing last week.

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