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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt5791 View Post
    4. It is easier than B&W in many respects.
    Matt
    Just curious, how is it easier than B&W?

  2. #22
    Mick Fagan's Avatar
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    CD-3

    4-amino-N-ethyl-N-(▀-methane-sulphonamidoethyl)-m-toluidine sesquisulphate monohydrate


    CD-4

    4-(N-ethyl-N-2-hydroxyethyl)2-methylphenylenediamine sulphate

    I'm not 100% sure on the accuracy of what I have written, but I believe that the above are the two main colour developing agents used these days.

    Colour printing is far easier to print than B&W because once you have the colour balance correct, you basically only have to get the density correct in various portions of the picture to get a quite pleasing thing.

    I can do bucket loads of colour prints in a darkroom session, whereas in B&W I work far slower.

    RA4 is called that, it means Rapid Access in 4 minutes. It is dry to dry in four minutes. So in four minutes you have a ready to evaluate colour print, compared to B&W fibre based paper where realistically you need to wait hours for air drying to occur to get a correct final evaluation. I force dry B&W fibre paper tests with a hair dryer, but my tests are only indicators of the final air dried print, close but not 100% the same.

    I have always found good colour printing to be easier than good B&W printing.

    Mick.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Fagan View Post

    Colour printing is far easier to print than B&W because once you have the colour balance correct, you basically only have to get the density correct in various portions of the picture to get a quite pleasing thing.
    But with B&W, you just need to get the density correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Fagan View Post
    I can do bucket loads of colour prints in a darkroom session, whereas in B&W I work far slower.
    I'd say that you're just more careful/picky about your B&W prints. It also could reflect a difference in subject matter you choose for B&W vs. color. I currently am working on a color print that I still need to do some dodging and burning to get it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Fagan View Post

    RA4 is called that, it means Rapid Access in 4 minutes. It is dry to dry in four minutes. So in four minutes you have a ready to evaluate colour print, compared to B&W fibre based paper where realistically you need to wait hours for air drying to occur to get a correct final evaluation. I force dry B&W fibre paper tests with a hair dryer, but my tests are only indicators of the final air dried print, close but not 100% the same.
    But this is just the difference between Fiber and RC paper - you could work just as quickly in B&W with RC paper. For example with PF130 developer:
    45 sec dev.
    30 sec stop
    1:00 min fix in TF4 rapid fixer
    rinse and dry - can only get away with this with RC paper

  4. #24
    Matt5791's Avatar
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    I think the reason some people find colour printing "easier" is because a colour print is much more "right or wrong" - whereas monochrome is much more artistic - hence its continuing popularity many years after colour photography became mainstream.

    When I started in colour I was suprised how it was easier than I was expecting to nail the filtration.

  5. #25
    Mick Fagan's Avatar
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    I pretty much nail a good colour print on the second enlargement from an unknown negative, these days

    If working off a contact sheet I already have a reference for density adjustments and any obvious colour casts. I do contact sheets of all 35mm colour stuff but usually only one contact sheet of a 4x5 colour set of shots. I work exclusively in C41 process by the way.

    Usually I see people who start out doing colour neg printing going ahead in leaps and bounds, then they flounder a bit with the odd quirky colour cast.

    Eventually if they are persistent and take reasonable notes, one day there will be a switch go on inside their head and colour printing becomes relatively easy.

    I would suggest that anyone doing colour use one brand of paper, film and chemicals until they feel comfortable doing colour. Then they can branch out and the sky is the limit.

    Mick.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser View Post
    PE Thanks. If I have understood your correctly the plus for CD4 is its ability to develop at lower temp than the standard 45 sec at 35 degrees centrigrade. The big minus is its worse dyes and lower stability.

    Yet the Kodak RA-RT kit is OK at room temp. So what does the Kodak kit contain which makes it OK at room temp. Is this the CD3 that Nick Zentenna mentions?

    Will a CD4 kit operate at 35 dgrees C in addition to lower temps and if it does, do the same problems of worse dyes and lower stability manifest themselves? If anyone were to use a CD4 kit at 35 degrees C would the quality problems be there from the start or only appear in a matter of months, years etc. What timescale for such problems did your research indicate?

    As the original OP indicated such info isn't easy to find out. Last night I checked for any reference to CD4 and found it on one label but this was for C-41 developer. Based on Nick's post it looks as if CD4 for C-41 is in fact the correct stuff so I need have no worries there.

    Most of us have to trust that the suppliers are producing the correct kit. The chemistry of colour processing for both C-41 and RA4 is knowledge that's way beyond my reach.

    Someone, Nick I think, said that Kodak or Fuji kits will be fine, Unfortunately Fuji-Hunt kits as it they are called in the UK seem to be even harder to find than Kodak's.

    On Kit information and because we are the other side of the Atlantic, any contribution from UK users would be most welcome as well.

    Thanks

    pentaxuser
    PE. This thread seems to have died a natural death. I appreciate that threads have lives and deaths of their own and take different twists and turns which can sometimes mean that some questions remain unanswered inadvertently.Is there any chance that you may be able to give answers to my questions? I hope that more than just me will benefit.

    Thanks

    pentaxuser

  7. #27
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    Sorry, I missed those posts.

    CD4 was used to speed up development many years ago. Some manufacturers still use it to speed up processing and charge a premium price for the kit. The use of CD4 was touted years ago by Pat Dignan. I corresponded with him shortly before his death, and was discussing the image stability question with him at that time. He was considering abandoning the use of CD4 based on his subsequent tests of image stability.

    Kodak paper now develops more rapidly and therefore CD4 gives no boost, but speedup kits are still sold at a premium price. IMHO, they are not needed due to the paper improvements. The RA-RT developer works just fine for me from 68 - 100 deg F (20 - 38.5 C).

    PE

  8. #28

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    PE. Wow that was quick. If we'd been in phone contact, it wouldn't have been much faster.

    It's clear that Kodak papers because they are faster now work fine at RT without having to risk the dangers of CD4 developer. I would assume that Fuji papers in Kodak RT developer would work equally well although the proof of this needs to be from someone who uses Fuji paper in Kodak developer and better still someone else who uses RT developer other than Kodak at room temp. I think Tetenal give temps down to RT for their developer but maybe a Tetenal user will contribute.

    Many thanks once again for the quick response

    pentaxuser

  9. #29
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    I have no recent experience with Fuji papers or developers. Sorry.

    Kodak paper develops fully in 2 minutes at 68 deg F and in 1 minute or less at 100F. I use 45" to 1' myself.

    Tetenal rapid developers with CD4 or any other change only does so at the cost of a premium price with no other benefit in my opinion.

    Kodak achieved the RA process by a redesign of the emulsions to speed development rate and bring it more in line with B&W papers. It used to be that the cyan developed first, then magenta and then yellow due to diffusion effects and grain size and type. Most of that has been solved with the new, high chloride emulsions.

    BTW, these emulsions appear to go to completion and do not easily go into fog or change color balance very much with errors in processing. There is a slight shift in color balance from 100 -> 68 deg F in the direction of yellow, in my experience, so you may need some additional yellow, about 10Y.

    PE

  10. #30
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    Interesting stuff. Thanks All.

    I'm afraid I've let the thread go silent, but with moderately good reason - I rented the rather excellent Canon 24-70 f/2.8 L over the weekend, and I've been burning film and silicon (naughty, naughty) with it
    When I get paid, I think I will have a go at colour printing.

    PE (or anyone else), please could you tell me exactly which Kodak individual chemicals I will need? - I can't make head or tail of the cryptic product names without descriptions on Calumet's site. Thanks
    Lens caps and cable releases can become invisible at will. :D

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