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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
    Excellent. Let me know if I can help when you find time to work on it. I might be able to donate some paper to the cause. I know I've got some in a friend's freezer but I dont know how much. I've also got some old P30 bleach concentrate, but I dont know if its good anymore. Its probably 6 years old and its not getting any younger. Would you be attempting to make something similar to P3 or P30? The latter would probably be most useful for the home user.

    Wayne
    Wayne;

    I am so tied up with the book and DVD on emulsion making plus some other projects, that I cannot do work on this right now. And, when I do get into it, I will be testing it on my own dye bleach hand coatings aimed at generating some sort of home made dye bleach print material. IDK. It is still in the rough stages.

    I can give you the formulas though if you wish to experiment.

    PE

  2. #22

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    It is my understanding that the new Kit 30.2 IS NOT the same as the P30.

    The P30 had a safer bleach for home use. 'sulfonic' (?) acid instead of sulfuric acid.

    Again, it is my understaing (hopefully accurate) that the Kit 30.2 is P3 Chemicals...

    Corey

  3. #23
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    Most formulas of the bleach used sulfamic acid. IDK what else they can use as the reaction does not take place easily much above about pH 2. Let me know what the MSDS says. Or what it says on the box of the new stuff. Maybe I can shed light on it.

    Most all solutions rely on an acid solution with pH of about 1.0 and a catalyst such as phenazine. Sulfuric acid was first used because it aids in the bleach reaction. In any event, the acid breaks the azo bond -N=N- into two -NH2 groups on the rings in the dyes and the dyes become colorless while silver is oxidized and partially dissolved.

    Dye is destroyed everywhere there is a negative silver image leaving behind a positive dye image. This way you get a positive dye image from a negative silver image directly. This works with most azo dyes or ones with -N=N- groups in them.

    PE

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyooso View Post
    It is my understanding that the new Kit 30.2 IS NOT the same as the P30.

    The P30 had a safer bleach for home use. 'sulfonic' (?) acid instead of sulfuric acid.

    Again, it is my understaing (hopefully accurate) that the Kit 30.2 is P3 Chemicals...

    Corey
    Hi Corey,

    I emailed you a spreadsheet that I got from Wynit, which is what I'm basing my statement on. Its confusing, if you think I'm mistaken after seeing the spreadsheet please let me know. I couldnt figure out how to post it here.


    Wayne

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Wayne;

    I am so tied up with the book and DVD on emulsion making plus some other projects, that I cannot do work on this right now. And, when I do get into it, I will be testing it on my own dye bleach hand coatings aimed at generating some sort of home made dye bleach print material. IDK. It is still in the rough stages.

    I can give you the formulas though if you wish to experiment.

    PE
    Absolutely, if you are primarily going to do it for a homemade print material I would be willing to test your bleach formula(s) on Ilfochrome. I dont know when I can get to it either; I may have time for some preliminary tests in the next month though, if I can get all the chemicals in time. After that I might be pretty busy too, until later this year.


    Wayne

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Most formulas of the bleach used sulfamic acid. IDK what else they can use as the reaction does not take place easily much above about pH 2. Let me know what the MSDS says. Or what it says on the box of the new stuff. Maybe I can shed light on it.
    This is from P30, 6-7 years old, the 2 liter home use kit


    PartA
    p-toluene sulfonic acid
    a quinoxaline adduct (CAS confidential) and
    sodium m-nitrobenzenesulfonate

    Part B
    Potassium carbonate
    potassium iodide
    trialkylphosphine sulfonate (CAS confidential)

    Part C
    sulfamic acid

    I posted this last year when this topic came up
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/3...ch-recipe.html

    One poster said that it could be expensive, so I'll qualify my volunteering to test a recipe to say "if its not too difficult or expensive".


    Wayne

  7. #27
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    The quinoxaline adduct is like the phenazine. It is the catalyst.

    The two acids are there to get the right pH. The Iodide helps bleaching by supplying a halide. The trialkylphosphine sulfonate is some sort of sequestrant IIRC and may be in the Dequest class of sequestrants which can be found by googling.

    I have a whole list of quinoxalines that work. These are expensive and tend to be carcinogens. You can see from my post there in your other thread, one of the formulas that I looked up for you.

    PE

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    The quinoxaline adduct is like the phenazine. It is the catalyst.

    The two acids are there to get the right pH. The Iodide helps bleaching by supplying a halide. The trialkylphosphine sulfonate is some sort of sequestrant IIRC and may be in the Dequest class of sequestrants which can be found by googling.

    I have a whole list of quinoxalines that work. These are expensive and tend to be carcinogens. You can see from my post there in your other thread, one of the formulas that I looked up for you.

    PE
    I didnt reread that whole thread, I just went back because I recalled posting the ingredients. If I had remembered everything that other fella said, I would probably have been smart enough not to volunteer myself for the job. :o
    I think this is probably best left to someone skilled than I am. I can certainly mix and test a formula, but it sounds like it may be a lot more involved than that.

    Wayne

  9. #29
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    Wayne;

    If/when I get there, I will publish the entire formula for a dye bleach material. If I can, I'll try to find notes on work done with Haist on this.

    PE

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
    You may want to double check the accuracy of that thread. When I talked with Freestyle recently they said they were not selling Ilfochrome chemicals anymore. BUt there is so much confusion about what is and isnt available that its worth double and triple and quadruple checking. I was told recently by a Calumet salesman that P3 was being discontinued, but it is not. He even said he had checked with Wynit, their distributor, but I find that hard to believe because Wynit knows it isnt being discontinued. The SKU number changed, thats all. This is the kind of utter confusion and misinformation you will encounter trying to obtain Ilfochrome chemicals.

    Another mistake in that thread is the P3X is not the replacement for P30. P3.5, 5 liter kits was the replacement, and it looks like now that is being replaced by 2 liter kits again (just like the old P30 was a 2 liter kit) which will be called P3.2 just to ensure there is total confusion and chaos all around. This is for the US anyway. It may be different elsewhere.


    Wayne
    Hmmm. Check the accuracy. Well, I just looked in the darkroom and the Ilfochrome paper (CLM1K) and chem (P30.2) the Freestyle had drop shipped from Oji/Ilford in November isn't a hallucination, so I guess that's accurate.

    Wot?

    Also, the replacement for P30 is P30.2, still 2L, but now all liquid. The fact that the bleach is now liquid seems to be the cause for the shipping problems.

    Confusion? The Ilford/Oji site lists the products, and more info is available via phone. All I had to do is ask about availability at Freestyle and they looked into a special order. The CLM1K was backordered so it took 3 weeks to arrive. CPS would have been shipped right away.

    I'd like to thank Ron, here, for his insights and attention to the dye bleach process and materials. There is nothing that looks as lovely as an Ilfochrome Deluxe Glossy print and I hope to continue using it or something like it despite the vagaries of the marketplace.

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