Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 70,681   Posts: 1,548,512   Online: 832
      
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 22
  1. #11

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    France
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    357
    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (docholliday @ Apr 27 2003, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Plus, I&#39;d suggest learning to do it the "Old Fashioned" way with viewing filters before getting an analyser. It&#39;ll train your eyes to "see" necessary filtration.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Haris,

    I second this recommendation. I have discarded all analyzers and testing kits. They never produced the picture I had in memory and they do not provide any visual feedback prior to printing. There do exist expensive previsualization techniques based on video technology, but they are usually not feasible for the Amateur or even Studio Lab.

    Start with something around 40 yellow and 20 magenta and look at the picture. In the beginning, use viewing filters (the cheap kits e.g. from Kodak – not lens filters) to determine compensations. You will soon learn the meaning of e.g. “–5Y”. Start with whole prints on small paper sizes, since it requires already some experience to judge color filtration from test strips or contact prints.

    Since reversal paper is very soft, you always need higher correction settings than with normal paper. A “+5C” is almost invisible there. Ilfochrome usually has a filter recommendation printed on each paper box as a suggested starting point.

  2. #12
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Ipswich, Massachusetts, USA
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    4,520
    Images
    26
    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (docholliday @ Apr 27 2003, 09:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Hmm... All my packs of Portra III, Supra III, Supra Endura, Ultra, Crystal Archive "C" from 8x10 to 20x24 and rolls have it printed on the outside of the box. "Test Print Starting Filtration 0C&nbsp; 60M + 45Y" for Supra Endura...

    Even the pack of EktaColor paper I have here that is some 15 years old has it printed on the outside...</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    I&#39;m not going to get into a p***ing contest here. I&#39;ve scoured the contents of my fridge - I have packages of Ektacolor Supra, PortraII, Ultra, and Radiance - all dated 12-93 (&#33;&#33; I don&#39;t use Kodak much) and **NONE** have "starting exposure filtration" on the outside of the package ... I even considered the possiblity of a negative "hallucination" (what was the proper name for that?) and had my wife and youngest daughter verify that. I would assume that at one time or another Kodak did - and did not - print that on the packaging. No matter ... for the variables I cited before, I consider that information to be marginally useful, at best. As an example, check out the data sheets for Ilford Mutigrade VC papers ... where they suggest different dichroic filter settings for various contrast grades according to the settings of Durst, Kodak, Meopta and Leitz Focomat V35 enlargers.

    I am not trying to critique the way others operate ... If one wishes to eschew analyzers, it is FINE with me.

    There are those who view a densitometer as a necessary - or at least a *very useful* piece of equipment - and that is exactly what the ColorStar 3000 is - a "Color Densitometer" with a lot of useful "automated" features. I *love* mine.

    In a former life ... along with calibrating Cascade Photomultiplier-based Photometers, I became (grudgingly) involved with Tri-Stimulus Colorimetry. I am somewhat familiar with the factors that can affect the perception of color. Ambient lighting ("North lighting is a defacto "standard"), gloss - angle of view... more than I&#39;d care to go into here... are MAJOR factors. We were trying to match (slightly) "Off White" painted fiberglass panels for a large machine (a CAT Scanner). The only way we found to keep all eight panels appearing the same was to paint them together as an assembly, serialize them ... and *never* try to "mix" them up.

    Color sensation is a funny thing ... I can produce five color prints, show them to an experienced "Camera Club Judge" (sound like I&#39;ve already done that - specifically?) and have one pronounced, "Too cyan - definitely too cyan" - mix them up, and have a different one pronounced "Too cyan" ... although all were done with the same filtration, same lot of paper - using the same "batch" of chemistry (one-shot), same processing time - same everything - except they were done sequentially over a period of an hour or so. Analysis using the ColorStar (I&#39;ve devised a method for use with prints) indicated *no* difference.

    I think I have some expertise in color printing without using the ColorStar - recently, I was able to produce an acceptably well color balanced print from a 35mm color negative taken on one of the local beaches at daybreak ... Made it using "Kentucky windage" on the fourth try. I consider that "lucking out" - big time.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  3. #13

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    France
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    357
    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ed Sukach @ Apr 28 2003, 03:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I am not trying to critique the way others operate ... If one wishes to eschew analyzers, it is FINE with me.

    There are those who view a densitometer as a necessary - or at least a *very useful* piece of equipment - and that is exactly what the ColorStar 3000 is - a "Color Densitometer" with a lot of useful "automated" features.&nbsp; I *love* mine.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Ed,

    a color densitometer is a useful device to determine if your process chain is within the standards or not. While a B&W-Densitometer might give you an impression on how your negative will print, the color densitometer will not do this in the same way.

    You may learn that a density of 0,6logD on your B&W negative will print to Zone V on a grade 2 paper. But a density of 0,5logD[G] on a color densitometer will not tell you anything, except when processing control strips.

    A Color Analyzer may help you to determine the correct filter values to print any given spot on your neg to a neutral color, but that may not be the "right" filtration for the whole print (e.g. you may wish to have it slightly warmer). And while a B&W Analyzer can show you the relation of several measurements on different paper grades, a Color Analyzer will not tell you anything useful about your measurements.

    IMO, the practical value of densitometry is totally different for color and B&W. And a B&W densitometer/lab meter will usually suffice to determine the correct exposure times for color printing, too.

  4. #14

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    963
    Haris,
    you&#39;ve gotten a lot of good advice so far. I&#39;ve never used an analyzer but it sounds like you&#39;re starting a bit on the cheap, as a learning process, so my experience may be relevant.

    Start with the filtration recommended on the box.
    Get the density of the print close to right.
    Dry the print quickly with a hair dryer (color is different when wet).
    use the kodak viewing filters to make filter adjustments.
    get the density right using the new filtration settings.
    adjust filtration and repeat density correction, as required.
    (BTW, color printing at home is a pain in the ass&#33

    since you&#39;ll be doing lots of trial and error, I reccommend you use room temperature RA-4 chemicals from tetenal or someone else. I develop in open 8x10 trays, wearing gloves. this will maximize the number of test cycles you can do in a given time, to maximize your through put and gain experience.

    The RA-4 chemicals can be used and reused up to the max number of prints on the instructions. that is, pour the chemicals back into the bottle from the trays for use next time until you reach the stated print capacity.

    you should also standardize on a film/paper combination and take notes, while printing. after a while you&#39;ll find that most of yours negs taken on a cloudy day, for example, will require approximately the same filtration.
    hope this helps.
    tom

  5. #15
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Ipswich, Massachusetts, USA
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    4,520
    Images
    26
    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tschmid @ Apr 28 2003, 11:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    You may learn that a density of 0,6logD on your B&W negative will print to Zone V on a grade 2 paper. But a density of 0,5logD[G] on a color densitometer will not tell you anything, except when processing control strips.

    A Color Analyzer may help you to determine the correct filter values to print any given spot on your neg to a neutral color, but that may not be the "right" filtration for the whole print (e.g. you may wish to have it slightly warmer). And while a B&W Analyzer can show you the relation of several measurements on different paper grades, a Color Analyzer will not tell you anything useful about your measurements.
    </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Yah ... but ...

    I may be deluded, but doesn&#39;t a Color Densitometer determine the densities in each color layer? ... the density of the magenta layer will produce a directly proportional magenta value in the final print. In reading the ColorStar, I get one value for magenta, one for yellow, one for cyan and an overall density. If I do not have enough "green" in the print (negative material) I will get *very useful information* directing me to add magenta, and telling me when to stop adding the magenta filter.

    This is not only for an "average" color balance - I have one channel set to produce "Fair Caucasian Skin", another to balance the gray in my most commonly used utility backgroud, under DynaLite lighting... and others.

    The "right" value for the final print is a matter of aesthetics. No machine will be of infallabe use in discovering the "final" filtration, but machines can serve a very useful purpose of recording your progress, causes and effects - along the way.

    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    France
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    357
    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Tom Duffy @ Apr 28 2003, 09:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>(BTW, color printing at home is a pain in the ass&#33
    </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Tom,

    you&#39;re right. That&#39;s why you shouldn&#39;t try to compete with the lab in printing 35mm rolls. Take the cheap prints from the drugstore and choose the ones you like to have big and the way you like the colors.

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    France
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    357
    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ed Sukach @ Apr 28 2003, 10:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The "right" value for the final print is a matter of aesthetics.&nbsp; No machine will be of infallabe use in discovering the "final" filtration, but machines can serve a very useful purpose of recording your progress, causes and effects - along the way.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    I&#39;m with you Ed. My objection was that a color analyzer does not give you any idea of what the final print might look like and is thus of less value (than a B&W Analyzer with a grayscale display). How does your Color Analyzer tell you when to stop adding magenta? Things would look different, if the Analyzer could tell you how a certain color on the neg would look like in the final print. But they usually can&#39;t do that. And one usually cannot imagine how a 0,5logD[G]+0,3logD[B]+0,2logD[R] with 30M+40Y filtration look like on a Fuji Crystal Archive, if you know what I mean. On the other hand it is no sorcery, to determine how a 0,4logD will look like on a Grade 3 Ilford MGV.

  8. #18
    jd callow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Milan
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    8,002
    Images
    117
    I didn&#39;t read all the posts so what I&#39;m about to say may be redundent or already discredited.

    I do a lot of c-prints from a wide variety of negs. I now have in my head starting points for most of my emulsions (and paper cmbinations I use), but they are only starting points. When I get a new film or one which I don&#39;t do often or don&#39;t have notes on I set the filter pack to 50y 50m 0c and do a test strip from 8sec to around 40sec in 4 sec. increments. The test strip will give me my density and the colour shift in that density will tell me how to tweak my filter pack. Always get your density first.


    It really is pretty simple:
    0) make test print (8-40sec)
    1) get the density
    2)adjust filter pack for that density
    3) make new test print
    4) adjust density (your initial colour pack changes may change the density) and filter pack
    5) make test print
    6) repeat 4 and 5 as needed
    7) once you like your test print make full size print
    8) pull neg and clean off all the sh&#33;t you didn&#39;t see while makeing test prints

    Hints...
    Paper comes with recommended filtration on the box it is for the most part useless, but you could use it as a starting point. Lenses, different paper batches, size of enlargement, and quality of exposure can change the filterpack from one frame to anouther on the same froll. When doing the first round of filterpack adjustments don&#39;t take baby steps or you&#39;ll never get to the end. There is NO perfect colour balance -- it is purely subjective. Keep notes on the back of your test and final filter packs for films and or film /papers. If you get to the point where your debating between + or -2cc and an extra 1 or .5 sec. on a print you&#39;ve been working on for hours slap yourself pick one and move on. Don&#39;t view wet prints for colour balance. Don&#39;t check the colour balance under non-daylight balanced lighting unless you&#39;re really good at it. Learn to work fast during the tests. Your first impressions are often the best. Keep an RGB/CMY colour reference or viewing filter pack handy (I&#39;m not as big a fan of these as others are but they do help).

    *

  9. #19

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    24
    What do you need for colour printing?

    1. Lots of paper towels.
    2. Patience.

    Oh, and a drum processor, colour head on your enlarger, lots of money to spend on all the bits (colour analyser anybody?).

  10. #20

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Sarajevo
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    1,801
    Thank you all. I will do it next way. First I will get Jobo CPE-2 processor. I already have Jobo COmTime b/w exposure meter/timer which can determine density of colour prints. For getting "right" colour I planed to use something like Colourwb from Lee filters. It is octagonal shape piece with different yellow/magenta/cyan densities. It &#39;s work like: you dial starting filtration. Place Colourweb on paper and expose it. Then look on print. Look position of "properly" coloured piece(s) of print Then you look at suplied second Colourweb card where is indicated that on particular piece of print you must dial that much more or less particular colour to get "right" colour. For example, second Colourweb shows that on this piece of print for right colour you must dial +10 magenta from starting filtration. Sorry, much easier to ue than to explain. That is why I wil need rough sterting filtration, not exact, and no analyser(well untill having money to get one )

    Thanks again, regards

    Haris
    Bosnia... You don't have to be crazy to live here, but it helps...
    No things in life should be left unfinis

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin