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  1. #1

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    ORWO 5166/Agfa CN17 details

    Hi,

    On a lark, I recently purchased some out-of-date Svema CND64 color negative film (expiration date 1992), just to play with it. I'm obviously not expecting great results, but I'd like to have a stab at processing it as color film. Some Googling suggests that this film was designed to be processed in ORWO process 5166, which Googling again suggests is identical to Agfa CN17. I found this APUG thread with a developer formula; however, I don't see process times or temperatures, and details on bleach and fixer are a bit vague. (Could I use modern C-41 bleach and fixer, albeit at lower-than-C41 temperature?) Does anybody have further details on this process?

    Also, does anybody have a source of supply for small quantities of CD-1? (I'm in the US, so I'd want a US supplier.) And what's the A901 referenced in the formula?

    If all else fails, I'll have a go at developing the film in NCF-41, which is at least intended to be run at room temperature, although I've no idea if it would develop an image, much less one with colors even as good as I'd get with 16-year-past-date film in the proper developer.

    Thanks for any further details that anybody can provide on this.

  2. #2

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    Don't know about that film, but the data for the ORWO process 5166 is given as:

    CD 7-8 min @20 C. +/- .25
    wash 15 min @12-15 C.
    Bleach 5 min @19-21 C.
    wash 5 min @12-15 C.
    Fix 5 min @19-21 C.
    Washing 15 min @12-15 C.
    Wetting 30 sec @19-21 C.
    Drying max. 40 C.

    using:
    Orwo CD 15 (C 15)
    Orwocolor 55 Bleach (C 55)
    Orwocolor 71 Fixing bath (C 71)

    Hope you will get more info.
    I might have more somewhere but I have a serious nose bleed at the moment and can no longer type
    woops gotta go....

  3. #3
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    I do have detailed formulas for negative, reversal and paper orwo processes. I already promised an apuger to translate some into english. Right now I'm not at home and do not have the book here and can't check if I have the exactly 5166 but I think I do. Next week I should have time and access to the book.

    I've never shoot any color svema but have some experience with old color orwo negs, slides and even positive print film. I've shoot and developed some in original process (there is a lab in Warsaw which does that) and c41 chem.

    If I were to shoot that film I would overexpose it at least two stops. I think 3 wouldn't hurt. I would expect film to work but with low contrast or very low contrast. I've shoot color orwo that old from different sources and they all worked.

    The film might or might not survive regular temperature c41. Last summer I've souped orwo UT18 in c41 in a spiral tank - emulsion swelled, but eventually I got a working negative. I've also tried and was successful in developing in c41 cd with temperature lowered to 25C for 8min. I don't remember exactly but original process runs somewhere in between 21C and 24C.

    As for the colors that film quite surely didn't reproduce colors nearly as naturally as current negatives when fresh. I was raised in a country where pretty much everything had these colors: tv, books, magazines. You could tell a movie from "the west" just by its more natural or more saturated colors. So I wouldn't worry that bad developer would give color shifts.

  4. #4

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    Ray, thanks for posting the detailed times. That'll help a lot, I'm sure! Domin, I look forward to seeing your post with further formulas for bleach and fixer (and for developer, if it differs from what's in the earlier APUG thread).

    Now I just need to find some CD-1. Any suggestions? Neither the Formulary nor Art Craft lists it, and a Web search isn't turning up much -- or rather, it's getting lots of hits on scientific papers, patents, etc., but no obvious sellers of small quantities of the stuff.

  5. #5

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    srs5694,

    Glad I could help!
    I should add that the development is given as being done with continous agitation...
    and that the first wash is supposed to be very vigorous.

    I don't know if I have any CD-1 now or not, but considering the amount of trouble this is going to be, and the fact that it is outdated film, and that you are not expecting to get fresh top quality results, it might be an idea to just experiment using the materials that you are able to locate easily... anything... cross processing, b/w, toners, spent c-41 material from a lab- just play around with it. I do not mean to discourage, but since you have little real hope of "normal" results anyway, I am just wonder if it is really necessary to process it the "right" way? Either case, good luck!

    (I may have a source for several of the CDs -- if I come across it again I will let you know...)

    Ray

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domin View Post
    I was raised in a country where pretty much everything had these colors: tv, books, magazines. You could tell a movie from "the west" just by its more natural or more saturated colors.
    Interesting observation!

    I am living in Japan and I can identify "western" movies just by their background music/sound effects... Japanese material is much less "rich".
    This comes in handy for rapidly locating the "good" movies before the screen lights up!
    Be free of all deception, Be safe from bodily harm
    Love without exception, Be a saint in any form
    (Patti Smith)

  7. #7

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    BTW - srs5694

    the A901 is treatment for hard water... you may not need it.
    Use soft water.

    Ray

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
    I don't know if I have any CD-1 now or not, but considering the amount of trouble this is going to be, and the fact that it is outdated film, and that you are not expecting to get fresh top quality results, it might be an idea to just experiment using the materials that you are able to locate easily... anything... cross processing, b/w, toners, spent c-41 material from a lab- just play around with it. I do not mean to discourage, but since you have little real hope of "normal" results anyway, I am just wonder if it is really necessary to process it the "right" way? Either case, good luck!
    I bought the film just to play with it, and I'm getting enough rolls (ten) so that I can try different things. I'd like one of those things to be the "correct" processing, but if I can't get the CD-1, I won't be crying myself to sleep over it. In that case, I'd probably split the first roll into two or three parts and try different things (room-temperature RA-4, NCF-41, maybe B&W). I may do this even if I can get the CD-1.

    Interestingly, I found that CD-1 (under the name "DPD") is sometimes used in tests of pool chlorine levels, but the descriptions I've seen online for this don't go into details about how dilute the DPD is (it appears to come in liquid form, but I'm not positive of that), and sometimes it's the oxalate rather than the sulfate.

  9. #9
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    Use of the oxalate salt won't hurt. That is, as long as you use the right molar amount.

    PE

  10. #10

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    Thanks for that bit of information, PE. I'll investigate the pool supply kits more; maybe the information I need is buried on a manufacturer's Web site somewhere....

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