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  1. #11
    wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    They did (in a way...)

    On their site there was a page:

    "Photochemicals - Questions and Answers
    KODAK FLEXICOLOR Final Rinse and Replenisher FAQ's"

    where the situation was explained.
    That page has vanished meanwhile.
    I guess the real question is approximately when it changed? If I have film in the freezer that I bought fresh 5 years ago, would that be new or old style stabilizer? If it's new, then it doesn't really matter to me, as I might at the most buy a brick every 2-3 years ( I don't use a lot of colour film), so I don't have any really old film around. I know that some others have film that is frozen from 20 years ago, so it's more of an issue.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  2. #12
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    Vericolor III is "old" film and the new Portras from last year and the new Ektar 100 are "new" films. I can't tell you when the changeover was though. Sorry.

    The best bet is to add some 37% formalin to the new stabilzer. Or mix your own stabilzer. The old type is 10 ml of 37% formalin (about) added to 1 liter of standard Photo Flo 200 working solution.

    PE

  3. #13

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    PE I think in another thread about stabilizer, a respondent suggested that with "new" films, stabilizer wasn't necessary and simple Photoflo wetting agent will work in terms of avoidance of water spots. Your posts suggest to me that stabilizer still performs a useful function even with "new" films and should be used. Am I right?

    However even if stabilizer should still be used, am I right to say that "new" films are probably less susceptible to the problems that stabilizer is desinged to prevent, as they age compared to "old" colour films?

    Thanks

    pentaxuser

  4. #14
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    Pentax;

    I have stated this over and over. Silver metal is a bacteriostat and fungicide when finelly divided. Therefore in B&W films, they have a "preservative" built in to some extent. In color films, silver is removed and all of the organics make a "feast" for the buggies. The stabilzers in the past worked to both stabilze dyes and to act as a bugistat! Today, color films only need the bugistat.

    PE

  5. #15

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    PE Thanks. That's another question clarified

    pentaxuser

  6. #16
    AgX
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    Paul,

    This is what Kodak stated:


    When will the new FLEXICOLOR Final Rinse and Replenisher be available?

    FLEXICOLOR Final Rinse and Replenisher will be available beginning in March 2000. It will replace all sizes of the current FLEXICOLOR Stabilizer and Replenisher LF on a stock-turnover basis. However, it will not replace FLEXICOLOR Stabilizer III and Replenisher, which will continue to be available.



    If new FLEXICOLOR Final Rinse and Replenisher contains no stabilizing agent, are there any films that I shouldn't process with the final rinse?

    Yes. Do not process films of older design that require a stabilizing agent for image stability. These films are KODAK VERICOLOR III Film, VERICOLOR Slide Film / SO-279/5072, and VERICOLOR Print Film 4111. Process these films only in a processor that uses FLEXICOLOR Stabilizer III and Replenisher. Films of more recent design, such as KODAK GOLD, MAX, ROYAL GOLD, PROFESSIONAL PORTRA, PROFESSIONAL EKTAPRESS, and PROFESSIONAL SUPRA Films require no stabilization for image stability. They will have optimum image-stability performance when processed with FLEXICOLOR Final Rinse and Replenisher.”



    Kodak uses here the term `stabilizer´ only with reference to Formaldehyde containing rinses, PE uses it also for final rinses containing an agent just acting as bacterio- and fungistat.

  7. #17
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    AgX has the correct Kodak post. I had not copied it and did not know the date. I have gallons of the old Stabilzer and use it for everything and so never paid attention to the problem.

    PE

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    Paul,

    This is what Kodak stated:


    When will the new FLEXICOLOR Final Rinse and Replenisher be available?

    FLEXICOLOR Final Rinse and Replenisher will be available beginning in March 2000. It will replace all sizes of the current FLEXICOLOR Stabilizer and Replenisher LF on a stock-turnover basis. However, it will not replace FLEXICOLOR Stabilizer III and Replenisher, which will continue to be available.



    If new FLEXICOLOR Final Rinse and Replenisher contains no stabilizing agent, are there any films that I shouldn't process with the final rinse?

    Yes. Do not process films of older design that require a stabilizing agent for image stability. These films are KODAK VERICOLOR III Film, VERICOLOR Slide Film / SO-279/5072, and VERICOLOR Print Film 4111. Process these films only in a processor that uses FLEXICOLOR Stabilizer III and Replenisher. Films of more recent design, such as KODAK GOLD, MAX, ROYAL GOLD, PROFESSIONAL PORTRA, PROFESSIONAL EKTAPRESS, and PROFESSIONAL SUPRA Films require no stabilization for image stability. They will have optimum image-stability performance when processed with FLEXICOLOR Final Rinse and Replenisher.”



    Kodak uses here the term `stabilizer´ only with reference to Formaldehyde containing rinses, PE uses it also for final rinses containing an agent just acting as bacterio- and fungistat.
    For me, it doesn't matter then, don't have any film that old....
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    Hazmat Team...??

    I can vividly remember having to work with tissues drained with formalin for hours at university. If I had hinted at a hazmat team, I would have been considered totally nuts...
    Don't forget that when my teachers were kids and the mercury thermometers broke they would flick the beads of mercury around the counter. Last year a thermometer broke at my school and they summoned the Hazmat team and evacuated the building.

    So "new" films will not benefit from a traditional formalin stabilizer? Doesn't the new stabilizer contain some proprietary non-formaldehyde based stabilizer? What is in the E6 pre-bleach stabilizer?

  10. #20
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    The new "FINAL RINSE" contains a bacterio- and fumgistat that preserves the film.

    The E6 process still uses formalin. The pre-bleach contains Sodium Formaldehyde Bisulfite adduct which reacts during the bleach to form formalin which stabilzes the dye without odor. The E6 final rinse contains a bacterio- fungistat that preserves film.

    New films can use all existing final rinses and older stabilzers or you can mix your own as I described earlier. Old films can use only the formalin stabilzer. E6 films still use formalin.

    In the 1700s it was stylish in high society to drink mercury for the unusual feeling it gave rolling around in the digestive tract, and lead was the common base for cosmetics. Women often had festering sores due to the lead pigments they used in cold cream and rouge. In any event, mercury vapor is the source of the "Mad Hatter" in Alice in Wonderland as mercury was used by felters in the hat making process and it will make a person's behavior become "mad". I agree that mercury vapor is harmful, but formalin is not in that league. Furniture finishes, glues and fabric sizing agents all contain formalin and if it were to be removed instantly from your home, your clothes would probably wrinkle up and your furniture would dull down and probably collapse. In fact, film stored in furniture drawers suffer from pre-process formalin exposure problems that used to lead to a greenish cast and fog. The same dye stabilty problems and fog problems applied before as to after processing to older films.

    Formalin pervades our society. Melamine and Bakelite are two plastics produced by using formalin. Formic acid is produced by insects metabolizing things that we cannot tolerate and many trees produce methyl alcohol (wood alcohol) which is also as toxic as formalin but not as well known to the layperson. Single carbon atom organics of the formalin, formic form (pun alert) are used by most organisms on earth but the highest mammals to which it is toxic. I might also mention that mercury falls into that same class to a small extent.

    If we removed formalin products from the face of the earth (and mercury) our entire ecosystem would probably collapse. So, we cannot afford to get hyper about at least formalin.

    BTW. the word plumbing comes from the word "plumbos" which is Latin for Lead, atomic symbol Pb. Lead pipes were used for years in plumbing systems from the time of Rome, and many wonder if Lead poisoning led to the collapse of the upper classes in Rome, but there is no evidence for that. Today, the process is on to ban lead in solders which are still used in electronics and in plumbing to solder pipes. Lead is far more toxic than formalin!

    PE

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