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  1. #21
    michaelbsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiberiustibz View Post
    Don't forget that when my teachers were kids and the mercury thermometers broke they would flick the beads of mercury around the counter. Last year a thermometer broke at my school and they summoned the Hazmat team and evacuated the building.
    I can remember wrapping some in a paper towel and brining it to school in my shirt pocket. I was king for day with the other boys. (Mercury poisoning, perhaps that's what's wrong with me.)
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
    www.industrialinformatics.com

    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    The new "FINAL RINSE" contains a bacterio- and fumgistat that preserves the film.

    The E6 process still uses formalin. The pre-bleach contains Sodium Formaldehyde Bisulfite adduct which reacts during the bleach to form formalin which stabilzes the dye without odor. The E6 final rinse contains a bacterio- fungistat that preserves film.

    New films can use all existing final rinses and older stabilzers or you can mix your own as I described earlier. Old films can use only the formalin stabilzer. E6 films still use formalin.

    In the 1700s it was stylish in high society to drink mercury for the unusual feeling it gave rolling around in the digestive tract, and lead was the common base for cosmetics. Women often had festering sores due to the lead pigments they used in cold cream and rouge. In any event, mercury vapor is the source of the "Mad Hatter" in Alice in Wonderland as mercury was used by felters in the hat making process and it will make a person's behavior become "mad". I agree that mercury vapor is harmful, but formalin is not in that league. Furniture finishes, glues and fabric sizing agents all contain formalin and if it were to be removed instantly from your home, your clothes would probably wrinkle up and your furniture would dull down and probably collapse. In fact, film stored in furniture drawers suffer from pre-process formalin exposure problems that used to lead to a greenish cast and fog. The same dye stabilty problems and fog problems applied before as to after processing to older films.

    Formalin pervades our society. Melamine and Bakelite are two plastics produced by using formalin. Formic acid is produced by insects metabolizing things that we cannot tolerate and many trees produce methyl alcohol (wood alcohol) which is also as toxic as formalin but not as well known to the layperson. Single carbon atom organics of the formalin, formic form (pun alert) are used by most organisms on earth but the highest mammals to which it is toxic. I might also mention that mercury falls into that same class to a small extent.

    If we removed formalin products from the face of the earth (and mercury) our entire ecosystem would probably collapse. So, we cannot afford to get hyper about at least formalin.

    BTW. the word plumbing comes from the word "plumbos" which is Latin for Lead, atomic symbol Pb. Lead pipes were used for years in plumbing systems from the time of Rome, and many wonder if Lead poisoning led to the collapse of the upper classes in Rome, but there is no evidence for that. Today, the process is on to ban lead in solders which are still used in electronics and in plumbing to solder pipes. Lead is far more toxic than formalin!

    PE
    I don't know about in the US, but here in Canada lead was banned from solder intended for plumbing use years ago, although it's still allowed for some other things, metal roofing, electronics, lead used in the building of pipe organs, Whether formalin is useful or not, isn't the point for debate, all I said was that I work for a delivery company that deals in dangerous goods, and if formalin is spilt, then the procedure is an evacuation and Hazmat response. It's not just formalin either, there are strong acids that will have the same response, one that was unmarked ate through a metal dock plate in under 30 seconds.

    Many things can be cleaned up by specially trained staff people, although they may still use Hazmat gear. Technically photo chemicals are considered class 8 dangerous goods -- corrosive -- although there are people who work with them without using any kind of protective gear. It's funny, if a box of colour chemicals broke open and spilt part of it's contents at home, I would just clean it up, at work, I would stop the line and call for a spill responder, as that is the policy.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  3. #23
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    And I cannot ship color chemicals or any developer as it contains "alkali" a generic word that requires a license to ship, at least that is what I'm told by UPS and FedX. I have to apply at their local head office for it and can only let them pack it and ship it from the main dock. I tried to donate 3 C-41 kits to Project Basho last year and was barred from shipping it.

    Also, when I teach, I have to have my chemicals shipped in by the host organization as I can't carry or ship the Ammonium Hydroxide or Sodium Hydroxide. In NYC, Lye is banned for public use.

    So, the rules are inconsistant and always changing as society changes. Thats the only point in any of this actually. The ability to do analog photography legally is being eroded by the current trends.

    PE

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    And I cannot ship color chemicals or any developer as it contains "alkali" a generic word that requires a license to ship, at least that is what I'm told by UPS and FedX. I have to apply at their local head office for it and can only let them pack it and ship it from the main dock. I tried to donate 3 C-41 kits to Project Basho last year and was barred from shipping it.

    Also, when I teach, I have to have my chemicals shipped in by the host organization as I can't carry or ship the Ammonium Hydroxide or Sodium Hydroxide. In NYC, Lye is banned for public use.

    So, the rules are inconsistant and always changing as society changes. Thats the only point in any of this actually. The ability to do analog photography legally is being eroded by the current trends.

    PE
    There are 5 sets of rules, and they don't always agree with one another, you have local laws, state laws and federal laws, you have shipping company policies and IATA rules if air shipping is involved. In Canada we only have 3 sets because municipalities don't have the right to set laws in this matter. The provinces rarely have laws that don't agree with federal law and each others laws, since the transportation of goods is a federal matter. Shipping company policies and IATA rules still apply.

    I agree that analog processing is getting legally more difficult, but I think as fewer people are involved in it, this trend will slow down and even stop as volumes get lower. The manufacturing of digital cameras and materials is often far more toxic then film is, but since the toxins are released in China, Taiwan and Malaysia it's less of an issue for most people.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  5. #25
    tiberiustibz's Avatar
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    I heard concern that all the cool science kits that got many of today's scientists interested in science in the 70s have all been banned because you can make bombs from them. Without cool exploding things boys my age are much less likely to get interested in science.

  6. #26

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    These rules or laws are killing the industry of photographic films in my opinion. Honestly if I can not legally process films myself I would abandon my hobby of photography all together. Processing is a significant part of the fun of photography to me. If I had to reply on a 3rd party person to control the creation of the images I can't imagine why I would enjoy it. I can understand the environmental protection these rules are for. But they should only apply to large quantity shipments but not to small packages for individual home use. It's funny that I can not mail a 1 lb box of C-41 developer to a friend 40 miles away. But I know for sure a chemical distributor in my town delivers hundreds and hundreds of lbs of photographic chemicals on a daily basis with a beat up van all over the city with no regulations. Why do we give so much of our tax money to feed so many government officials who set these rules to make our hobby so difficult to enjoy? I am sure Kodak's business in films and film chemicals have been severly damaged by these rules.

    By the way while I agree that China is the country that is releasing the most toxic waste to the whole world I don't think Taiwan and Malaysia should be included. India is more likely the next in line. Just look at the number of factories built in China by all industrialized countries around the world. Taiwan and Malaysia are too small to build enough number of factories to pollute the world.

  7. #27
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiberiustibz View Post
    I heard concern that all the cool science kits that got many of today's scientists interested in science in the 70s have all been banned because you can make bombs from them. Without cool exploding things boys my age are much less likely to get interested in science.
    Yes, those old kits contained most of the ingredients to make "GASP" gunpowder.

    I can buy it by the pound at the local gun store, so I don't need no steenkin keet.

    PE

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtjade2007 View Post
    These rules or laws are killing the industry of photographic films in my opinion. Honestly if I can not legally process films myself I would abandon my hobby of photography all together. Processing is a significant part of the fun of photography to me. If I had to reply on a 3rd party person to control the creation of the images I can't imagine why I would enjoy it. I can understand the environmental protection these rules are for. But they should only apply to large quantity shipments but not to small packages for individual home use. It's funny that I can not mail a 1 lb box of C-41 developer to a friend 40 miles away. But I know for sure a chemical distributor in my town delivers hundreds and hundreds of lbs of photographic chemicals on a daily basis with a beat up van all over the city with no regulations. Why do we give so much of our tax money to feed so many government officials who set these rules to make our hobby so difficult to enjoy? I am sure Kodak's business in films and film chemicals have been severly damaged by these rules.

    By the way while I agree that China is the country that is releasing the most toxic waste to the whole world I don't think Taiwan and Malaysia should be included. India is more likely the next in line. Just look at the number of factories built in China by all industrialized countries around the world. Taiwan and Malaysia are too small to build enough number of factories to pollute the world.
    Most of the laws regarding chemicals, apply not just to photographic chemicals, but chemicals in general. Mostly in regards to the safe handling of materials in a commercial atmosphere. It would be almost impossible to, in the western world to build love canal now, that's not a bad thing, What is, is that they build them every day in China, it's one of the reasons so many companies are moving factories to China, there are almost no environmental laws there, they can pollute as much as they want with government sanction.

    I expect in the next few years analog photography will fall under the radar, and nobody will care if you dump a litre of spent fixer down the drain, because it's such a small amount overall.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  9. #29
    tiberiustibz's Avatar
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    and despite all these regulations my friend claims you can still make a bomb at the hardware store.

  10. #30

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    The shipping restrictions on alkali chemicals are mostly due to the damage that they can do to the aluminum airframe of an airplane if they leak in shipment. A little spill can be very expensive for the airplane owner.

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