Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 69,982   Posts: 1,523,867   Online: 1069
      
Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 71

Thread: Alternative E-6

  1. #11
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,934
    Images
    65
    Stefan;

    In E4, TBAB (t-Butyl Amine Borane) was used as a fogging prebath before the color developer. In E6 it was replaced with the less toxic Stannous Chloride. Both of these solutions go bad rather quickly so take care.

    The DTOD (Di-Thio-Octane Diol or Ethylenedithiodiethanol) was used in B&W motion picture reversal processing, but not AFAIK, in the E6 process. It may have been later introduced. The EthyleneDiamine used in E1, E2, E3, E4 and E6 is there as a silver halide solvent to help grain structure and promote dye formation.

    Some of this is discussed in the book by Eaton on photographic chemistry, and an E1 or E2 formula is given there.

    The HQMS was first used in E6 to offset the high activity of HQ at 100F when processing thick films.

    PE

  2. #12

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    152
    Dear mts, dear PE!

    There is still a question about the Ethylenediamine…

    OK, it can be substituted by Ethylendiamine sufate, in an amount of about 8 g/litre due its larger molecular weight, but stays a more exotic stuff which is not merchantable for me without a hassle.

    If it’s more than a silver solvent and is able to help dye formation (probably more in the deeper regions of the emulsion) or enhance the contrast, wouldn’t it be possible to reduce one of the CD-3’s antagonist (CZA for example) if no Ethylenediamine is available, to compensate this lack and keep contrasts and densities in line?

    Just asking, because this seems the way Kodak managed this in the former "E-6 hobby kit / single use kit".

    There is no Ethyldiamine / Ethyldiaminesulfate involved but Ethylenedithiodiethanol (Tegochrome 22) and a distinct reduced amount of CZA to about 0.56g/Litre, which is usually stated around 1.3 till 1.5 g/litre. With my limited knowledge and access to literature I couldn’t find other properties for Ethylenedithiodiethanol exept as a silver halide solvent. This trick could reduce the chemical costs considerably, no EDA, less CZA needed.

    Ethylenedithiodiethanol “sleeps” in my cellar, this would fit nicely…

    Sources (of my suspicion)

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5198517.html
    scroll down till the E-6 formulation begins,

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5948604.html
    keep a calculator nearby, divide given amounts for CD part A by 5.

    Regards,
    Stefan

  3. #13
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,934
    Images
    65
    Lower CZA increases Dmax and contrast and changes the interimage effects. IDK offhand what changing it would mean. You are discussing making a lot of changes.

    As for using Tegochrome 22, it is extremely expensive compared to Ethylene Diamine.

    PE

  4. #14
    mts
    mts is offline
    mts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Los Alamos, NM
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    334
    Images
    106
    My understanding of CZA is that it mitigates formation of colorless dye components and therefore effectively lowers or raises color contrast (saturation). I don't believe it is at all interchangeable with eithylenediamine which I understand, as PE stated, contributes to dye formation in the deeper layers.

    You can experiment with the color chemistry by processing test film through the reversal and bleach. Wash after the bleach and then dry the film for later re-wetting. Cut the test film into strips for later processing with various formulations of color developer followed by the usual fix and wash. That way you can evaluate the effects for film samples that were all processed with the same first developer, reversed and bleached the same, and of course that were all exposed the same. In this way you can test Tegochrome 22 if you have it available, and can compare with a test that is processed in the standard E-6 color developer chemistry. If you get some results, please post them for all to see.
    By denying the facts, any paradox can be sustained--Galileo

  5. #15

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    152
    Dear PE dear mts!

    Well I know that lowering CZA will increase the contrast due less competition to oxidised color developer.

    What I just want to know is weather less EDA impact can be compensated by using less CZA. There must be a reason for the dosages I’ve found in these two links above. Or asked the other way, does EDA increase contrast, next to solve silver halides ??

    Tegochrome 22 / 2,2-Ethylenedithiodiethanol may be more expensive by itself, but paying freight from (for example) Canada to Germany or being “forced” to buy a whole Kg does not make EDA more attractive...
    Simply looking for alternatives which make (some) sense

    Regards,
    Stefan
    Last edited by stefan4u; 03-12-2009 at 03:45 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: typo

  6. #16
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,934
    Images
    65
    CZA and Ethylene Diamine are not related in any way AFAIK. So, no, they cannot be interchanged.

    Lower CZA for example, can lead to higher cross contamination of color in the active E6 color developer.

    DTOD and SCN are interchangable to some extent, but IDK if you can fully interchange them. I do know that you should not mix them except at extremely low concentration and I cannot remember the proper ratios of that mix.

    PE

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    152
    Thank you both anyway!

    I think I caused a misunderstanding somewhere; this is simply not my native language…

    It was not intended to interchange CZA and EDA, just want to work out the effects of EDA.

    What I would like to interchange is EDA against Tegochrome22/DTOD (if possible), simply because latter is present. In this context it’s interesting that DTOD is (partly) interchangeable to SCN, the stuff I’ve always took

    Regards,
    Stefan
    Last edited by stefan4u; 03-12-2009 at 04:58 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #18
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,934
    Images
    65
    AFAIK, EDA and DTOD are different in their effects as well.

    DTOD is a straight silver halide solvent and must be used at low level and concentration. EDA is more like a cross between DTOD and Benzyl Alcohol from my understanding, in that it promotes development but at the same time, promotes coupling.

    PE

  9. #19

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    152
    Dear PE !

    Thanks’ for clearing that, this way it makes sense, even for my mind.

    (but it will be hard, not to fall in love with benzyl alcohol again)

    Regards,
    Stefan

  10. #20
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,934
    Images
    65
    If I were to experiment with anything, I would use Benzyl Amine. GAF used that in their reversal formulas to perform 2 or 3 functions. Beware though. It stinks! Kind of like some biological functions going bad.

    PE

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin