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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post

    . They did it on the prints as opposed to on the in-camera film.
    If you do it on the prints you can screw it up and it's only the cost of the film and processing. Screw up the negatives and it's game over.

  2. #12
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    I could not find anything about a B&W developer, just bleach bypass. ENR is apparently the process used here for release stock prints so the name is still in use. You might ask Dan Ochiva, editor of Millimeter Magazine about it, if he is still with them. He has kept very well abreast of this type of work, but has gone into the digital world along with the magazine.

    PE

  3. #13

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    Another interesting discussion, with some info from Hollywood cinematographer David Mullen: http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=36214. Apparently it is always done at the print stage, which makes a lot of sense for MPs.

    More info, including variations and examples of who uses them: http://www.cinematography.net/bleach.htm

    Another link, with the author saying he got his information from David Mullen: http://www.filmmaking.net/faq/answers/faq39.asp?catid=8

    According to the guy who wrote this link: http://www.cineman.co.uk/bleach.html, the results are different at each lab.

    According to these sources, it also seems that my film instructor's description of the process was correct. It involves using black and white redevelopment to control the amount of retained silver.

    You can't trust what you read by strangers on the Internet. You have to do your own research and experimentation. It seems that "ENR" is a term invented by Technicolor, who came up with the process. So, if anyone knows EVERYTHING about the process, it is Technicolor. Give 'em a call and see if they'll talk to you. Same with big MP labs. See if you get someone who will give you some info. Try MP message boards instead of APUG, and you will likely get much more (and much better) information.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 04-04-2009 at 02:58 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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  4. #14
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    2F; (apologies for using your first name )

    I cannot understand that really. A bleach is a bleach. It removes silver from any source. Therefore it will remove silver from both color and B&W developers.

    I have to believe personally that the people who tried to explain it to others did not understand what was going on. I'm sorry.

    You can test it yourself by just placing some B&W film into a bleach such as Ferricyanide or Ferric EDTA and let it go. The silver turns to Silver salts and then can be fixed out.

    As I described before, use of a B&W developer right after a color developer has effects on the color image. However, if that is combined with bleach bypass, IDK what would happen. Using a B&W developer is somewhat like a push process and combining it with bleach bypass the results would be as you describe with very much heightened effects such as color contamination and increased contrast and grain.

    But, if bleaching is being carried out, then silver is removed to the extent that the bleach was designed to do, and that is completely. We know from normal usage that bleaching and fixing are steps that go to completion and that applies here as well.

    PE

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Zentena View Post
    If you do it on the prints you can screw it up and it's only the cost of the film and processing. Screw up the negatives and it's game over.
    I understand the benefits, and apparently, it is also easier for labs to do it on prints, so that is the only way it is done.

    I have never done it with the RA-4 process; just in-camera still film.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    2F; (apologies for using your first name )

    I cannot understand that really. A bleach is a bleach. It removes silver from any source. Therefore it will remove silver from both color and B&W developers.

    I have to believe personally that the people who tried to explain it to others did not understand what was going on. I'm sorry.

    You can test it yourself by just placing some B&W film into a bleach such as Ferricyanide or Ferric EDTA and let it go. The silver turns to Silver salts and then can be fixed out.

    As I described before, use of a B&W developer right after a color developer has effects on the color image. However, if that is combined with bleach bypass, IDK what would happen. Using a B&W developer is somewhat like a push process and combining it with bleach bypass the results would be as you describe with very much heightened effects such as color contamination and increased contrast and grain.

    But, if bleaching is being carried out, then silver is removed to the extent that the bleach was designed to do, and that is completely. We know from normal usage that bleaching and fixing are steps that go to completion and that applies here as well.

    PE
    I was thinking myself that it must be followed by a partial bleach step or something similar.

    But, if we really want to know, we can call Technicolor. As I said, the Internet is always suspect.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    You need to look for the 757 mL bottle of Kodak Flexicolor Fixer and Replenisher. It makes a gallon, lasts 8 weeks or 120 rolls, and costs about $8 plus tax.
    Actually much cheaper than that if you get the 1 gallon size. It's about $9 to make 5 gallons of working solution. Works for everything B&W and C-41.
    Frank Schifano

  8. #18

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    I think perhaps the mystery about this is due to 2F erroneously describing the process sequence. I find a plausable description here: http://www.theasc.com/magazine/nov98/soupdujour/pg2.htm

    The gist is that Technicolor's ENR, "named for its inventor, Ernesto Novelli Rimo..." leaves metalic silver in the film, apparently by this means: First, the film is developed normally, and then bleached. As in normal processing, the (rehalogenating) bleach converts the metallic silver back into a silver halide, capable of being dissolved by fixer, BUT fixer is not used yet. Rather, the film goes through some sort of B&W developer, which begins "developing" the silver halide back into metallic silver (I presume appropriate fogging or whatever is done to the silver halide to make this "development" possible). It seems possible to develop to whatever degree one wants, and then stop/rinse or whatever, followed by FIXER. So all of the remaing silver halide will be dissolved out, leaving behind whatever amount of metallic silver that had been redeveloped.

    I think, as PE surmises, "that the people who tried to explain it to others did not understand what is going on." That is all. Some steps were out of place in the explanation, so it didn't make sense.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by fschifano View Post
    Actually much cheaper than that if you get the 1 gallon size. It's about $9 to make 5 gallons of working solution. Works for everything B&W and C-41.
    Indeed. That is a very good price. I just assumed that most people might prefer to deal with the smaller quantities that are readily available at pro photo shops rather than special ordering or mail ordering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    I think perhaps the mystery about this is due to 2F erroneously describing the process sequence. I find a plausable description here: http://www.theasc.com/magazine/nov98/soupdujour/pg2.htm

    The gist is that Technicolor's ENR, "named for its inventor, Ernesto Novelli Rimo..." leaves metalic silver in the film, apparently by this means: First, the film is developed normally, and then bleached. As in normal processing, the (rehalogenating) bleach converts the metallic silver back into a silver halide, capable of being dissolved by fixer, BUT fixer is not used yet. Rather, the film goes through some sort of B&W developer, which begins "developing" the silver halide back into metallic silver (I presume appropriate fogging or whatever is done to the silver halide to make this "development" possible). It seems possible to develop to whatever degree one wants, and then stop/rinse or whatever, followed by FIXER. So all of the remaing silver halide will be dissolved out, leaving behind whatever amount of metallic silver that had been redeveloped.

    I think, as PE surmises, "that the people who tried to explain it to others did not understand what is going on." That is all. Some steps were out of place in the explanation, so it didn't make sense.
    Excellent info! Thank you.

    FWIW, I had already come to the conclusion that my original understanding of the order of steps in the ENR process must be wrong, but that it did involve b/w redevelopment.

    When I tried the process myself in this order: C-41 dev., b/w dev., stop, wash, bleach, wash, fixer, wash, stabilizer, I did get the desired wonky results, but PE has already explained why.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 04-09-2009 at 12:13 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  10. #20
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    There are two common processes that use either retained silver or augmented dye images to get odd effects in color. They are:

    Color develop
    stop
    wash
    fix
    wash
    rehal bleach (ferricyanide + bromide)
    clear - stop + sulfite
    wash
    fog with light
    EITHER: color develop or B&W develop depending on effect desired
    wash
    fix
    wash
    stabilze

    One process will accentuate color and contrast and the other will give you an intense bleach bypass look.

    The sequence with two color developers can be repeated as often as desired to get higher and higher color saturation and contrast.

    PE

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