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  1. #41
    wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanrockwood View Post
    You might have a point here. However, a patent is, under legal theory, a "teaching" document. To be valid a patent must be "enabling" which means that to be valid a patent must teach enough about the invention to enable someone skilled in the art to reproduce the invention. If a patent is deliberately misleading or incomplete then it can be challanged and the courts may rule that it is "unenforceable."

    Furthermore, a patent is supposed to also teach the best way to do the invention described in the patent. There have, in fact, been patents that have been declared unenforceable because they did not teach the best way to do the invention. Of course, this would mean the best way to do the invention as understood by the inventors at the time of the writing of the patent.
    IANAL, but I think your last sentence explains it all, a patent can be filed at any time in the design phase, earlier is probably better, especially in this day an age when there are a lot of corporate spies, and you don't want your competitor to beat you to the punch. This does not however mean that the patent filer must cease work on the invention as soon as the patent is filed or that the patent must be updated for additional improvements. As long as the improvements don't make it different enough that it's no longer covered by the original patent. Wording can get you a lot of leeway too though.

    For example in building a better mouse trap, you might use wording like "a firm hard base such as wood", a better wording then " a wood base", because you can use metal or plastic and still be within the wording of the patent. More importantly your competitor can't get around your patent by using a metal or plastic base, claiming that it no longer is covered by your patent.
    Paul Schmidt
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  2. #42
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    Paul;

    Very well said.

    One restriction left out here is that a patent must be filed in the US before first production is sold on the open market. So, you cannot sell something and patent it at the same time. This virtually assures that any newly patented material was in development at the time the patent was filed. This is one reason why you see changes.

    The patent on Kodachrome makes no big deal about hardeners or process temperature and they moved up about 10+ degrees in temp and changed hardener during the development phase. There was no effect on the working of the invention as CD-6 makes the same dye at 68F as it does at 100F. It makes the same dye regardless of hardener.

    So, the invention is valid.

    PE

  3. #43
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    Re-post: Kodachrome layer ordering and composition, per PE.

    Permalink from this originating thread and post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer
    If I posted an entire workable formula for Kodachrome with an ISO of about 25, would anyone make it? It cannot be hand coated except by a very good lab worker, but it can be machine coated with the aid of a coating engineer.

    So, that would be a powerful question to have answered! I don't see anyone building their own coating machine nor anyone truly anxious to invest time and money in developing the film and process. It can be done, and I could probably post a set of workable formulas.

    I would bet that no one would take me up on that.

    The structure is /UV overcoat/Yellow/IL with yellow filter/Magenta/IL/Cyan/Support/RemJet backing The IL (Inter Layer contains 3-Sulfo-2,5 di-t-butyl Hydroquinone to prevent crosstalk. The yellow filter is colloidal silver. The rem-jet can be replaced with an antihal layer under the cyan layer which would be made of Gray colloidal silver.

    I have no suggestions for the UV absorbing dye. It is essential though. The work would start by building a set of single layer coatings that showed feasibility, and then triple coats would be made (M + IL + C) for example, to show two color resolution and no crosstalk and finally assembly of the multilayer package to give full color photos.

    PE

  4. #44
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    UV filters are numerous. I have the choice of 21 in my day job, a core set of around 8-10 (I formulate SPF products)

    Ron, would there be any preferred characteristics for the UV filter?
    For instance water soluble / Non water Soluble, any preferred pH range, or particular spectrum?

    For water soluble materials I would start with things like Benzophenone-4, or Disodium Phenyl Dibenzimidazole Tetrasulfonate (Easily available and cheap). Downside being that in solution they are naturally quite acidic. This may well do odd things to Gelatin
    "Flatter Me, and I May Not Believe You. Criticize Me, and I May Not like You. Ignore Me, and I May Not Forgive You. Encourage Me, and I Will Not Forget You."

  5. #45
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    It would have to be very soluable in N, N - Diethyl Lauramide and ethyl acetate and have at least an octyl group ballast. It would have to cut off at about 380 - 400 nm. It would have to be neutral in pH.

    PE

  6. #46

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    All patent arguments aside, where can I find the Kodachrome K-12 patent? Is it going to *try* to kill me like the E-4 process? (tert-butyl amine borane) I recently ran across some Kodachrome II....

  7. #47
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    They get more difficult as you go back in time. The original process was exceedingly complex. It required at least 6 more steps and a few more hours than the latest process. E4 is easy by comparison. What is your complaint?

    PE

  8. #48

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    I have no complaints. And I only wanted the K-12 process. Not the original 1935 process.

  9. #49
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    It is there, and probably is referenced in the K-14 patent, I really don't remember. Best luck to you.

    PE

  10. #50
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    Lots of Kodachrome II around! Got three 25' rolls of 8mm in a recent lot of old film. Not sure why I buy such things but the 110 and 126 Kodacolor II, VP 828, Super XX 620 at least should be usable... Can I reload 110 cartridges with the Kodachrome II and process it as B&W? Sacrelige I know...
    Harry Pulley - Visit the BLIND PRINT EXCHANGE FORUM

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