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  1. #31
    Toffle's Avatar
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    Denise,
    Thank you for your reply. I see that I mistook your words. I will excuse my harsh reply by saying that it was probably in part due to the physical, mental, and emotional exhaustion that often dogs me during the final stages of a months-long theatre project. I saw your words and had a little defensive hissy fit. I offer my sincerest apologies.
    Tom, on Point Pelee, Canada

    Ansel Adams had the Zone System... I'm working on the points system. First I points it here, and then I points it there...

    http://tom-overton-images.weebly.com


  2. #32

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    i have never heard that people who take their film to a lab aren't "real artists",
    or if someone shoots chromes they are less of a photographer
    than someone who shoots black and white ...
    i don't share that point of view at all and i think it is kind of comical that that this was even suggested...
    seeing so many photographers, who have "made it" worked hand in hand with a lab,

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    or if someone shoots chromes they are less of a photographer
    I mentioned slides but feel I ought to clarify my point as I certainly don't think shooting slides makes one less of a photographer.

    Denise wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by archer View Post
    If what you later describe in darkroom craft, dodging, burning and image manipulation to achieve your vision, then what you have described is the compilation leading to artistic expression.
    From this I asked about slide shooting & projecting specifically as the method has no darkroom stage. Without darkroom craft, I wondered, could this still be "the compilation leading to artistic expression" as Denise argued.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer View Post
    Dear Steve and Tom;
    First I will reply to Steve. Steve, if composition, cropping and proper exposure is all you aim for in your expression then what you have described is not akin to art but more akin to framing and technique.
    From what you are saying, a photographer who takes slides, not matter how good is completely devoid of any artistic ability. Obviously, either you have never taken a good slide or you do not know what you are talking about.

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  5. #35

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    Dear Steve (Sirius Glass);
    Where in heaven did you see me write that " anyone who takes slides, no matter how good is completely devoid of any artistic ability." My words mean exactly what I wrote, not what you have misconstrued. It may help you understand me when I tell you that I am not subtle in my meaning nor do I practice innuendo. If I meant you to understand that what you wrote was truly what I meant, I would have expressed it exactly as you have misconstrued it. When I started as a working photographer, I was junior to the rest of the staff of a large studio and was the only one there with experience in shooting transparencies and it thus fell to me to shoot all our color work, that was for publication, in 4X5 chromes, using a speed graphic, hand held with film no faster than 50 ASA. Our most important client was the University of California at Davis and their most important day was the famous Picnic Day. I was given the assignment to shoot the Queens float during the parade and the image was to be used as the signature image of the school in their yearbook and on every brochure mailed by the school for that year. My composition was perfect. The exposures were perfect and the assignment was a success and the work was used as intended. Does that make it art? No! it makes it WORK! Why is the assignment of the word, art, to our work, necessary for our vision of ourselves? Why is being a good, great or brilliant photographer not good enough to satisfy the need for self worth? Please remember that self delusion is the opiate of the ego maniacal and was the point of my first post regarding William Eggleston and that vapid inanity he refers to as his "art". From personal knowledge, I can assure you that if you called Gene Smith an artist, he'd likely punch you in the mouth and Ansel would have smiled and presented his fanny for kissing and these were truly great artists but more, they were great photographers.
    Denise Libby

  6. #36
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    The art in taking slides is getting the exposure right with a medium that has a narrow latitude of light, composing and cropping so that the slide is a finished work. With slides, one can not go back and crop [yes, you can mount in glass and mask off areas, but it ends up looking like that], OR change the contrast OR burn in/dodge areas OR bleach OR tone. The art is in capturing the moment exactly as intended by the photographer.

    There are no redos or after the fact alterations. One gets it right or reshoots. There are no other possibilities.

    I can take a print and do many things to it to improve it. That does not exist with slides.

    When I started as a high school student, I did not have a budget to reshoot photographs. Learning to get it right the first time is a very useful capability, an art, that serves taking black & white and color prints well.

    If you still think that taking slides is an art, consider that once a photograph, even a slide, is taken the composition cannot be improved. It can be cropped but not improved. AA said that without a good composition, a photograph cannot be made good or interesting no matter what darkroom techniques were used.

    If you still do not think that photographing slides is an art, then you better contact every art school, art history class, art dealer and art museum and tell them that you do not consider composition a component of art, that you think that composition is a mechanical-technical operation that can be accomplished by a machine. And that composition should no longer be part of art appreciation or art curriculum.

    Steve
    Last edited by Sirius Glass; 09-21-2009 at 06:51 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  7. #37
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    I need to update my claim that I have never had problems with Wal-Mart.
    I went today, to have 3 rolls of HP5+ and 400tx scanned. How I ended up with a roll of 400tx in the mix I don't know. Anyhow, the Fuji machine WOULD NOT register the frame on my HP5. He tried every way to make it work. Dishartened, I went to Walgreens, as they are the only other place I know of in town to scan my negs.

    What did they do? This:


    Well, I am still livid at the sheer incompetence. So that's all I'll say. The only reason I scan to CD is to proof... Thursday, its old school day. I'm going to make an actual contact print, and actual real print prints.
    - J. Richard
    4x5 Speed Graphic, Looking for another 8x10.

  8. #38

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    getting back to the original post ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Pritchard View Post
    I think this young man is a conscientious employee. This is an eye-opener. The video is only about four minutes long. I am not critical of Brandon. I think we should know what happens to our color negative processing at mini-labs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPj98RysHS0

    The problem is that the 4"x6" prints produced are scanned, then are edited by a minimum-wage employee, not the photographer. Where's the art? How does the photographer know what the negatives look like?
    do we know anything about the fellow who operates the mini lab,
    other than what we see and what he says ?
    yes, he is a clerk at the drug store who runs the equipment.
    he seems well trained and knows exactly what he is doing.
    how much training would he have to have to be a competent printer
    or photographer or artist ?
    ( one doesn't need to be a trained photographer or artist to
    print photographs ... it helps but it isn't necessary )

    do we know that he has never taken elective art classes in school ?

    i would easily say that he uses a camera and knows what a good photograph
    looks like from first hand experience ( using his phone, his ds or his camera and seeing thousands of negatives and prints ) ...

    i don't think i am going out on a limb here but i don't really think
    the lion's share of the people who drop their film off at the drug
    store really care that he isn't a trained artist ( or is he ? )
    what their negatives look like, or that he is using his own good judgement to interpret their film.
    i really wouldn't call a drug store a "custom lab"

  9. #39
    Dave Pritchard's Avatar
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    The point is that Brandon will correct an exposure which does not look right to him. Some of us assume that the machines are automatic. We think we are getting consistent results, when the Brandons are fixing our color balance or brightness using their own judgment. If we are shooting snapshots, that's fine. If we aspire to anything else, we should get to know the process, and maybe the person editing the scans, (or do it ourselves).

  10. #40
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    1 hour labs or mini labs are far different than professional labs. I always send my film to a professional lab for development for three reasons - no time, no skill and because I can. I shoot colour transparencies mostly and any B&W film I shoot, I send to dr5 to develop them as transparencies too.

    When it comes to printing, that's whole other story and I expect the professional lab to make NO adjustments to the file I send them except to correct for individual printer gamuts - that's because I made all the adjustments I want in PS and proofed them using an inkjet printer first.

    Regards, Art.
    Visit my website at www.ArtLiem.com
    or my online portfolios at APUG and ModelMayhem

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