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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anon Ymous View Post
    Wow there Art, it wasn't meant to be a heated debate. I'm just saying that there are advantages, nothing more, nothing less. And for the record...

    1. Yep, slides force you to do your best, but what if your gear isn't up to the task?
    2. I don't care about what you pay for slides. I'm just saying that if prints are what you want E6 offers no real advantage IMHO. Unless of course if you just love the color palette of a specific slide film.
    3. I'm glad that you have that option, but that's not the case for most places in the world. The ever dwindling amount of E6 labs worldwide is a negative sign I'm afraid.

    Finally, if slides survive or not depends on their usefulness, not on what a guy (me) posts at a forum.
    1. Equipment not up to the task of shooting E6? Well, you're in luck. Used film equipment is the eptiome of cheap these days. There's no reason why you can't pick up a camera that can do a good job with E6 for virtually nothing.
    2. C41 has a price advantage only if you are willing to put up with drugstore processing and/or not have proof prints made (and choosing pictures to enlarge without proofs is not easy for most of us). If you have C41 processed with 4x6 proof prints, you are going to pay MORE than for E6 processing at any kind of quality lab.
    3. C41 processing these days is primarily going to be drugstore processing, where the quality is questionable. When it comes to professional quality labs, it is every bit as hard to find C41 processing as it is to find E6 processing. All E6 labs in Sacramento that have stopped E6 have also stopped C41 in favor of all-digital services. I can't see this NOT being the case elsewhere.

    As for the future of slide film, it actually IS influenced by what people like you say. When people hear that it is pointless to shoot it from everyone out there, they will abandon it even if they like it. Just like the legions of people who used to shoot C41, and abandoned it in favor of digital.
    Last edited by StorminMatt; 08-09-2009 at 07:01 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #22
    Ektagraphic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StorminMatt View Post
    If you like slides, keep in mind that slide film does a better job at making prints than C41 does at making slides.
    I totally agree(!), but so many people don't.
    Helping to save analog photography one exposure at a time

  3. #23

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    I skipped the 1,2,3 part because it's either too subjective, or availability and prices vary a lot around the world. Anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by StorminMatt View Post
    As for the future of slide film, it actually IS influenced by what people like you say. When people hear that it is pointless to shoot it from everyone out there, they will abandon it even if they like it. Just like the legions of people who used to shoot C41, and abandoned it in favor of digital.
    No, I disagree. Everyone who reads my posts (or anybody else's) has to think a bit and see if I'm right or wrong. An E6 shooter can give C41 films a try and if satisfied, will switch to them. If not, he'll continue using slides. As for the legions of ex C41 shooters who use digicams, well, if they are satisfied with the result and enjoy what they're doing, then they did well. I know it hurts to say so, but that's the truth.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anon Ymous View Post
    I know it hurts to say so, but that's the truth.
    It's not the truth. It's your arrogance.

    Regards, Art.
    Visit my website at www.ArtLiem.com
    or my online portfolios at APUG and ModelMayhem

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by gr82bart View Post
    It's not the truth. It's your arrogance.

    Regards, Art.
    What?! Have a look again at my post and think for a moment. Whoever dumps something for something else, whatever might that be, and finds the new thing equally good and enjoyable does well. What's wrong with what I said?

    EDIT: It also hurts me to say so.

  6. #26
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    I hate this battle between E-6 and C-41! If one person likes one or the other let's use it and make the most of what we have left of it!
    Helping to save analog photography one exposure at a time

  7. #27
    E76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ektagraphic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by StorminMatt View Post
    If you like slides, keep in mind that slide film does a better job at making prints than C41 does at making slides.
    I totally agree(!), but so many people don't.
    Prints from negatives are superior to those made from slides. Even slides made from negatives can be better than actual slides! If you don't believe me, listen to what PE has to say.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by E76 View Post
    Prints from negatives are superior to those made from slides. Even slides made from negatives can be better than actual slides! If you don't believe me, listen to what PE has to say.
    It's a great interview, and I understand and agree with the gist of what PE said. Negative films are amazing, and have many advantages over transparency films in many situations.

    However, like so many engineers and other strictly-technically-oriented types, he left a bad taste in my mouth with a few absolutist statements. He seems to project the general view that because something is better from his standpoint as a technician, that it is the obviously the better tool for everything that everyone will ever do. They refuse to see anything other than the technical, and it comes off as being closed-minded and very far-removed from actual practice. They never consider that artists or professional might actually LIKE the technical "imperfections" of a material, learn to know them, be able to control them, and prefer them to the technical "ideal".

    In short, I'd rather have the technical information, and use it to make my own opinions. Technical information all too often comes hand in hand with opinions stated as facts as to what people should want from an image.

    Personally, for most pictorial applications, I do not usually like images in which the entire tonal range of the scene lands on the straight line portion of the curve. I like compression. It is as simple as that. The compression is what film is all about for me. That's the reason it looks so much better than digital to my eyes. If I want to capture a scene on a straight line, I can shoot digital. If I want to shoot onto a straight line with film, I know how to do it. Even if I wanted to shoot onto a technically ideal film all the time, I would still welcome the availability of aesthetic choice for other photographers via having "inferior" materials continuing to exist. I like Ilfochrome prints because they are unique in their contrast, color, and surfaces. If I don't want that look, I can either be smart enough to not shoot for that process, or suffer the results. Engineers and other tech-obsessed types need to give all users of tools some credit and responsibility, and quit telling us what is best for us, what kinds of things we should be doing in practice, and what results we should be aiming for.

    If the picture/situation does not suit transparency film, then don't use transparency film! What's so hard about it? There are plenty of situations that do not, and plenty of situations that do. The fact that negative and positive films have different technical attributes should be seen as a good thing, as it gives artists variety. Negative film being "better" for a long list of technical reasons is no reason whatsoever that transparency film should not be used. One should use whatever tool will give them the results and the control they want. For me, that is black and white neg sometimes, color neg sometimes, color pos sometimes, and digital sometimes. Except for digital, I would be very depressed if any one of them was not there.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 08-10-2009 at 05:26 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by E76 View Post
    Prints from negatives are superior to those made from slides. Even slides made from negatives can be better than actual slides! If you don't believe me, listen to what PE has to say.
    Prints from negatives are better than prints from slides? I guess it all depends on the look you are after. Slides from negatives can be better than slides from E6/K14? Are you perhaps referring to Dale's Lab? Please don't make me laugh.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gr82bart View Post
    I'd recommend Duggal and Elevator only because they have a Lambda or Light Jet and the print is therefore chemical/wet process, not an inkjet.
    A and I does as well. It is the standard method that they use to make non-automated prints. They also have a rig set up to do black and white fiber the same way.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

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