provia 100f with tetenal e6 3 bath questions

[Raphael]

EU version. Very confused now. The Mfr# are also somewhat different.

Just curious: Do you get these little packs our do you buy the huge bottles where Tetenal may assume that you knew the process anyway?

Mine, are the "euro" version. I use the 5L packs (maybe this is the 4 of 5th I bought), and in the begining, used 1L, and 0,5L kit (now discontinued). I wasn't aware that another type of Tetenal E6 kit exists (the one you link at b&h) !

To be honest, I couldn't tell the difference in results between 6:30 and 7:30 of FD time reliably because the difference is 1/2 stop or less, which is below the accuracy of most of my light meterings. The difference, if it exists, may stem from inaccurate statements of film ISO number by the manufacturers rather than different chemical properties. People reportedly rate and shoot 400 ISO film at anything between 320 and 640 from what I read.

I think the overdevelopment phenomenon for Sensia/Astia, in my case, seems to be founded. I thought initially that my First Developper went suddenly bad, but I never experienced such a thing before (nor after, until now !), and I try to keep strictly the same protocol for process and conservation (Separate beakers for mixing, Protectan, etc...).

I remember that when I go reading the E6 troubleshooting manual, where I checked the symptoms (Hightlights burned, yellow/green cast) I found that the origin maybe "FD time too long". I know maybe there is many sources of problem (exposure, Iso variation, bad film, film conservation,...), especially with transparencies, but since I am using 6:30 for the FD, my Sensia slides are rather fine.

I have to make some scans of Sensia slides, either processed 7:30 and 6:30, and can posts it here, if people are interested.

I may not be the most experienced E6 user here, but I can confirm that I achieved acceptable results putting E100VS and Provia 400X into the same tank.

Interesting to know it !
I talking here from what I read here and there, not my experience. For example, I found this thread :
http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/i...hp/t-6371.html
We can see experiences in this matter seem to be varying among users.
I am pretty sure I read this somewhere else, I wonder if it is in one of Tetenal docs, I am still searching.

So to all those who don't shoot 5 test rolls of refridgerated slide film from one batch lot to evaluate the exact color properties and ISO performance of that very lot: E6 is E6 is E6. That's the whole idea of E6 and I doubt that any pro lab bothers separating the different E6 film brands. Please don't make the E6 process sound like black magic that no mortal could ever figure out.

You're totally right. But I think the Tetenal 3-baths is a very condensed form of the standard E6 process, and maybe it has its own idiosyncrasy.

The rotating process in small tank, has peculiarities too, and maybe not very used by the pro-labs, whom rather uses "transfer" processing machine, IMHO, but maybe I am wrong here.

Interesting discussion, btw

Best regards,

Raphael

[Raphael]

Hi David,

I don't know if they are the same emulsion, but my Astia first developer times are shorter than my Provia times and longer than my Kodak/Agfa times.

So, what times are you using for Kodak/agfa films ?

BTW, I never got a really good results with Tetenal 3-bath and Agfa Precisa CT films (135), always got a slight magenta cast.

regards,

Raphael

[jinx]

Hi,

This might help http://www.fujihunt.com/fuji/fhweb20..._E10_05-07.pdf

The same times are given in an old (german) JOBO Process manual for an ATL.

Jinx

[Rudeofus]

Mine, are the "euro" version. I use the 5L packs (maybe this is the 4 of 5th I bought), and in the begining, used 1L, and 0,5L kit (now discontinued). I wasn't aware that another type of Tetenal E6 kit exists (the one you link at b&h) !

Mine are the "euro" version, too. Hello, fellow film using EU citizen I, too was surprized to see the different US version and thought it might be an explanation for why so many folks have no instruction manuals.

I think the overdevelopment phenomenon for Sensia/Astia, in my case, seems to be founded. I thought initially that my First Developper went suddenly bad, but I never experienced such a thing before (nor after, until now !), and I try to keep strictly the same protocol for process and conservation (Separate beakers for mixing, Protectan, etc...).

I remember that when I go reading the E6 troubleshooting manual, where I checked the symptoms (Hightlights burned, yellow/green cast) I found that the origin maybe "FD time too long". I know maybe there is many sources of problem (exposure, Iso variation, bad film, film conservation,...), especially with transparencies, but since I am using 6:30 for the FD, my Sensia slides are rather fine.

Allow me to refer to my manual again: FD & CD times start with 6 minutes and progress to 8 minuted as the bath gets reused. I'm quite surprized why people would do the first run @7:30 FD time unless they wanted to push by 1 stop. Needless to say that color casts may be the results.

It has happened many times in my engineering life that I (knowingly or unknowingly) ignored important parts of the manual and created convoluted ways to work around the resulting problems. Since color film development allows no debugging between steps, it's very hard to find out the sources of color casts or other problems.

I'm talking here from what I read here and there, not my experience. For example, I found this thread :
http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/i...hp/t-6371.html
We can see experiences in this matter seem to be varying among users.
I am pretty sure I read this somewhere else, I wonder if it is in one of Tetenal docs, I am still searching.

The instruction manual states clearly how to deal with certain color casts. If such steps are necessary, obviously one would avoid mixing film brands, since the recommended changes to the bath are different for different film brands.

Since film processing is, compared to digital, a very old trade, there is a lot of information out there, which may or may not apply to a modern setup. Films come and go, so do developer kits, and things which were critical 20 years ago may not be an issue today.

If you have a studio with very controlled lighting and a highly repeatable color development process, there may be a point in dealing with slight color casts. In this case you should invest the time to dial in your process to yield the exact results you need. If you (like I do) shoot mostly outdoors, switch film brand and speed all the time and process the rolls in Jobo 1520 tanks with reused developer, film brand dependent FD times should not be your main concern. I get decent results, btw.

[Raphael]

Allow me to refer to my manual again: FD & CD times start with 6 minutes and progress to 8 minuted as the bath gets reused. I'm quite surprized why people would do the first run @7:30 FD time unless they wanted to push by 1 stop. Needless to say that color casts may be the results.

Maybe because many people, using Jobo like me, refers to the Jobo Documentation for rotary processing E6, where Jobo counsels a FD time longer than the actual Tetenal booklet. These are here and here

For Fuji, Jobo recommend to use a FD time 16% longer, so 6:30+16% ~ 7:30.
I know this is not very courageous from me , but I tend to obey the Jobo people from the analog years, which, IMHO, knows the best about rotary processing.

As a result, for me, the 4x5 Provia 100F transparencies I got, show no color cast, or at least no cast when eyeballing it on a light table.

If you have a studio with very controlled lighting and a highly repeatable color development process, there may be a point in dealing with slight color casts. In this case you should invest the time to dial in your process to yield the exact results you need. If you (like I do) shoot mostly outdoors, switch film brand and speed all the time and process the rolls in Jobo 1520 tanks with reused developer, film brand dependent FD times should not be your main concern. I get decent results, btw.

I'm in this case too, and I suspect, since 2 or 3 years I do E6 processing, that times and temperature controls are not so crucial, and the E6 process if much more fail tolerant that one could thinks. If I'll take the time, for the sake of curiosity, I will realise several tests on 4x5 sheet transparencies, and process it with different FD time, to see if it really matter.

Regards,

Raphael

[Rudeofus]

Maybe because many people, using Jobo like me, refers to the Jobo Documentation for rotary processing E6, where Jobo counsels a FD time longer than the actual Tetenal booklet. These are here and here

For Fuji, Jobo recommend to use a FD time 16% longer, so 6:30+16% ~ 7:30.
I know this is not very courageous from me , but I tend to obey the Jobo people from the analog years, which, IMHO, knows the best about rotary processing.

As a result, for me, the 4x5 Provia 100F transparencies I got, show no color cast, or at least no cast when eyeballing it on a light table.

I just looked at the Jobo instructions. The 5l bath instruction pdf closely resembles my 1l bath instructions. Note, that this document does not even mention the word Fuji or Kodak in the relevant section. Since the pdf was created in the year 2000 (bonus points to all those who discover the y2k bug in the pdf ) and still matches my current instruction booklet, I assume that the deviating instructions are very old and refer to an earlier version of the Tetenal kit. Shame on Jobo for not putting a date on their online manuals .

One thing the 5l bath instructions lack are a description how to increase FD, CD and BX times as the bath is reused. I guess Tetenal expects home processors to buy their 1l kit.

I'm in this case too, and I suspect, since 2 or 3 years I do E6 processing, that times and temperature controls are not so crucial, and the E6 process if much more fail tolerant that one could thinks. If I'll take the time, for the sake of curiosity, I will realise several tests on 4x5 sheet transparencies, and process it with different FD time, to see if it really matter.

I started with C41 2 years ago, never got decent results, then switched to E6 and immediately had success. I do use a color thermometer and carefully mix the developer solutions to spec, and process my film in Jobo hand drums. I scan in my slides with color correction turned off and never had to correct color casts unless the ambient light didn't match daylight. I am stunned to constantly read about magenta casts and what not from people who have much more experience and have a much more sophisticated setup.

I should ask the Tetenal folks whether it would be ok with them if I posted a transcript of their 1 l bath manual, since this seems to contain the most accurate and current description of how to process E6 with their bath.

[danzyc]

thank for all! friends it is possibile to skip the bleach on e6???

thanks

[Rudeofus]

thank for all! friends it is possibile to skip the bleach on e6???

I have no first hand experience, but found this link. I think it covers all aspects of this.

[hrst]

thank for all! friends it is possibile to skip the bleach on e6???

thanks

No, because the bleach has to remove both negative and positive silver image. If you skip bleaching, you have overlapping positive and negative silver image -- opaque film.

[Photo Engineer]

Well, I have to add that the 3 bath kit must include a stabilzer with current E6 films if you are to avoid serious image stability problems.

PE