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  1. #11

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    Update: I scanned the sprint processed velvia and it was essentially monochrome. i couldnt even tell if there was color on the macbeth card (looked very faint) or if it was my eye tricking me. time to order some rodinal from freestyle.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiril View Post
    I noticed when I made a concentrated "parodinal" formulation including hydroquinone and ascorbic acid to use as a fast 20c first developd I noticed I was getting dye formation after taking it out for reversal via light - the colours were quite strong - I didn't think before then putting it back into colour developer after reversing instead of just bleach and fixing.. so I ended up with black film.

    I made it in a hot solution intially so it was ready to use in minutes... overnight though.. still powerful developing properties, but no more dye formation, as I did a test on developing some C41 with it, then a bleach and fix, seems to be staining a monochrome image onto the base after the HQ broke down too much over night.

    That particular experiment was a failure, as I cant have dye formation or staining in a first developer, was getting great image development on C41 film a 1+100, 20-24c and 10-12min, as opposed to equivalent development (without staining or dye formation that I noticed) with Rodinal 1+50, 40c, 2 hours.

    Going to mix some more stuff up tonight and use it as a negative developer, see what I get.
    Glad to know someone else out there is working on something similar. Have you tried developing an E-6 film with it yet? That's what I'm doing. Shooting Velvia developer/wash/blix without a 2nd traditional E-6 developer.

  3. #13
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    I've developed Astia 100f with Xtol as a first dev and C41 as a colour dev, and the colour accuracy was fairly decent (as opposed to C41 films being quite a bit far off, even when trying to colour correct digitally).

    I live in Australia, so I usually buy c41 film imported from hong kong or U.S, as $12/roll for C41 is a joke, as is the $22/roll for E6, or the $35/roll for Provia 400X :x

    You should try the parodinal formula, I refine my tablets by crushing into powder with a mortle and pestle, mixing with methylated spirits, then filtering through a coffee filter into another container.

    You can boil the metho off if you have proper lab borosilicate beaker (like $3) and a gas stove (dont use a glass jar, it will crack and shatter), or leave it the sun to slowly evaporate.

    A 50/50 mix with water with the metho works well, you need a decent amount of water for the sodium hydroxide to dissolve properly.


    p-phenylene diamine (it and its derivatives as the secret sauce in CD's)
    4-aminophenol (Rodinal, hydrolysis of paracetamol)


    I'll try a 1+25 on some Superia 800 and see how I go.


    Didnt do the 1+25... I quickly made up some parodinal from 24x500mg in 100ml of methylated spirits, once filtered it was 70ml, evaporated some spirits off, filled it up to 90ml with boiling water, then added the sodium hydroxide, was ready in about 20 minutes at more or less full strength.

    I used this entire solution mixed up to 300ml of water, developed @ 30c for 10 minutes, developer came out basically black, looking coca cola.

    The silver negatives were extremely dense, even my box speed shots (ISO800), went up to +16 EV in compensation in 1 EV steps, didnt do any negative shots from box speed.. unfortunately, could see images on a few of them.

    After a very mild bleach and fix they were too dense, so I did a complete bleach and fix.

    Now they are invisible (apart from the spaces between the frames which there is a difference) except 1 or too which are extremely thin which I can barely make out with my eyes, might have trouble scanning it, so might use my dSLR to macro it once its dry.

    Solution to that would be longer development to let it form more dye.. but once the silver is 'black' it has no contrast mask to apply through.. just flat, thus with bracketing of underexposure it would take longer for the silver images to turn completely dense, thus have more time for the developer to apply through those masks to form the dye... that's what I logically think, though I guess it comes at the sacrifice of shadow detail, perhaps.

    My guess is youre getting images because you're not doing a complete bleach, so a partial bleach bypass, and thus a luminance/multiply mask is applying from the silver, with some thin hue/saturation added from the barely formed dye layers.

    Which is also fine.

    My next step is try to some Reala (out of the 800) with bracketing on either side, with lots of negative bracketing, and develop the hell out of it to try the above hypothesis since the rate at which the dye forms is much slower than the rate which the silver develops.


    edit:
    scanned using colour neg profile, then level adjusted on each channel in photoshop.

    Last edited by Athiril; 10-19-2009 at 02:37 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #14
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    Okay update, did a roll of Reala 100, shot a colour chart @ ISO 100, and -1, -2, -3, -4, -5, etc stops.

    The negatives look pretty damn great to me, -1 and -2 seem the best, plus a few back yard scenes.

    I think there is colour there, but its hard to tell with C41 with its orange mask on top of everything.

    Development was 1+20 Rodinal, 24c for 31 minutes, plenty of agitation.

    Just waiting for them to dry.


    little bit of pushed saturation from one of the best exposures (4 stops underexposed from ISO100 - ie: ISO1600) -


    OKay now.... levelled the colour channels individually using levels in Photoshop... then used channel mixer to swap the green and blue channels... then I did a Hue and Saturation, -36 on Hue and +66 on Saturation (also previously did heavy noise reduction on the colour targets as they could be seen without random colour noise affecting them so much from the scanner from such heavy processing).

    Result: Red, Green, Blue on the left strip, Cyan, Magenta (kind of), Yellow on the right strip, while everything else is fracked up

    But hey, the colour definately has been developed and discerned, they also all seem a bit dense with a small range (to the scanner, but look great to me), as I did a small bleach mix with plenty of fixer like the OP, am going to fully bleach and fix them now to see how much of the image is contributed from the silver, and how much from the dye.



    edit: I'd say 90%+ of the image is from the silver layers, I bleached and fixed one of the really dense shots of the colour card and almost no image remains (but denser then the first tests on S800).


    mikez: if you want to experiment further finding the right partial bleach bypass amount, skip bleach altogether and fix, then you can scan, and take it back and do a small bleach-fix, dry scan again and repeat until you find the best amount etc.


    edit2:

    complete bleach and fix on one of the ISO100 shots which was too dense for the scanner (and now very thin).
    similar process but +13 on hue and not as much on saturation (+20's)




    Tomorrow I will try again with +6 to -6 shots on Rodinal 1+10 for an hour, though I might use parodinal equivalency to 1+10 (will make some up and compare developing times till it matches) as I dont feel like wasting 30 mls of Rodinal on a single roll of film for test purposes.


    to give you an idea of just how thin the colour layers are even at 1+20, 31min, 24c, this is how it appears to the scanner with a tiny histogram and this one is probably the denset (exposed at box speed) -
    Last edited by Athiril; 10-19-2009 at 05:57 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #15

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    Athiril, that's great. I think the biggest difference is that I'm starting with an E-6 film and you are using a colour negative film to begin with right?

  6. #16
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    I would not give you much chance of having decent dye stability with these dyes. The reason is that all modern color developers have a methyl group adjacent to one NH2 group to push the rings out of exact resonance due to the bulk of the methyl group. This adjust dye hue and also stabilzes the dye to fading influences. Couplers are designed for this "twisting action".

    Also, the pAP dyes will very likely be very pH sensitive. This is due to the acid nature of the -OH group instead of a -NH2 group. Again, couplers were not designed to allow for this ionization.

    Good luck guys. And Athril, lose the dust and lint!

    PE

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    I would not give you much chance of having decent dye stability with these dyes. The reason is that all modern color developers have a methyl group adjacent to one NH2 group to push the rings out of exact resonance due to the bulk of the methyl group. This adjust dye hue and also stabilzes the dye to fading influences. Couplers are designed for this "twisting action".

    Also, the pAP dyes will very likely be very pH sensitive. This is due to the acid nature of the -OH group instead of a -NH2 group. Again, couplers were not designed to allow for this ionization.

    Good luck guys. And Athril, lose the dust and lint!

    PE

    I was too impatient and was drying the film with a hair dryer >.>

    I also a think there is a fair bit of it coming from the scanner glass now.. time for a clean.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikez View Post
    Athiril, that's great. I think the biggest difference is that I'm starting with an E-6 film and you are using a colour negative film to begin with right?

    Yeah, as I have an abundance of C41 films in the fridge, and no C41 chems, but have an abundance of E6 chems and b&w chems and raw components, and only 3 rolls of E6 film in the fridge atm (2xAstia in 35 and 120, and 1xEIR in 35 sure as hell aint donating that precious roll to experiments! )

    from my experience when I was first developing with Xtol, the required developing power was about the same for Reala as Astia, maybe a little less for Astia.

    And as for Kodak EIR, the same development that was good for Astia was far far too much.



    Anyway next step is to try a stronger developer solution for longer on a large bracket range.

    I'm also thinking perhaps do a first development with Xtol, or a weaker rodinal at high temp so no dye formation (or virtually none), then reverse and process to completion in a stronger rodinal for a long time.

    The other would be to play with low temperatures on strong developing solution.
    Last edited by Athiril; 10-19-2009 at 10:35 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    I would not give you much chance of having decent dye stability with these dyes. The reason is that all modern color developers have a methyl group adjacent to one NH2 group to push the rings out of exact resonance due to the bulk of the methyl group. This adjust dye hue and also stabilzes the dye to fading influences. Couplers are designed for this "twisting action".

    Also, the pAP dyes will very likely be very pH sensitive. This is due to the acid nature of the -OH group instead of a -NH2 group. Again, couplers were not designed to allow for this ionization.

    Good luck guys. And Athril, lose the dust and lint!

    PE
    PE thanks for your insight/advice. Always helpful.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikez View Post
    PE thanks for your insight/advice. Always helpful.
    Always glad to help, even if you don't like Kodak.



    PE

  10. #20

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    PE,

    I can't hate Kodak because they've provided wonderful materials for a very long time and many great photographers over the years have used their products. While I may be bitter right now I can't deny their place in the history of imaging. When I was new I cut my teeth on 35mm rolls of TRI-X and PLUS-X and when I first learned the "wonders" of LF I was again using Kodak T-MAX100.

    When my old professor/mentor handed me his last rolls and sheets of Technical Pan I was in awe of the sharpness and odd yet pleasing rendition of tone. When he gave me his last sheets of Type 55 4x5 Polaroid I was in love with that film as well. And when he gave me his last sheets of AGFA MCC 111 & PRK118 they were instantly some of my favorite enlarging papers of all time.

    I am only 22 years old and have only been into analog photography for a 2.5 years. I have used these "precious" materials donated to me knowing they aren't produced anymore so I didn't get too attached. I am thankful for the oppurtunity to even use some of this stuff the "dinosaurs" of photography have mourned over as each announcement of discontinuation has been made.

    I just recently got into RA-4 printing and after testing a few emulsions/finishes I really loved the look of Supra Endura. I never expected this, so I guess this is the first time something that I used (and expected to be around) was discontinued.

    KODAK has provided decades of good materials and research to the imaging community, so like I said I don't dislike or hate Kodak, I am merely disappointed with them. It's like when you're a kid and you realize for the first time that your parents don't know everything and can't fix everything. It's a let down, but it's a sign of the times and I can't really blame them if it is helping keep them in business.

    -Mike

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