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  1. #31

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    "All men are created equal, but some are more equal than others"

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Mitsubishi bank owned Sakura (Konishiroku) and also the Mitsubishi plant and therefore the Hachioji plant of Konishiroku Kabushiki Kaisha and the Mitsubishi photographic paper plant were closely allied and in close communication. This is directly from Wakabayashi Yasuo Hakase San, Fukushacho of R&D at Konica. Wakarimashita?

    Confirmed by Ueda Hirozo Hakase San, Fukushacho of Fuj during lunch and a tour at Kodak Parki.

    All personal communications!

    Sayonara, to mato ato de.

    PE
    It was my understanding the Mitsubishi group members were autonomous; your little equation above implies equality, more specifically, that the color paper was identical. Even if you are correct and they were owned by the same group*, that does not mean the products were the same, just as it does not mean that Lucky Color Film is identical to Kodacolor Film.

    Are you of the opinion that Konica-Minolta is owned by Mitsubishi too?

    I am given to belive that Dai Nippon bought Konika's old factory in 2006... (Dai Nippon is related to Mitsubshi) but that does not really tell me that DNP also bought Mitsubishi, or vice versa...
    Konika = DNP sounds better than Konika = Mitsubishi;
    At least as far as the paper goes....

    So what is the relationship between Mitsubishi and DNP?
    There is one, but I don't think it is as simple as your equation makes it appear.

    Anyway, this is all too "icky" for me... I guess it depends on where you draw the line... Wratten= Kodak since Kodak ate them up. But, (before they pullled out) did Kodak = Lucky?
    (I hear they had a 20% share (and perhaps 90% brains? so 110% Kodak?)

    There are side relationships and then there are vertical relationships.

    Your equation
    Mitsubishi = Konishiroku = Sakura.
    just doesn't do this subject justice...

    ... because the equality between the last two parts...
    is much greater than the equality of the first two parts.
    (Sort of reminds me of Animal Farm!)


    Ma, watashi wa so omoimasu.
    Sore dewa, mata atode.

  2. #32
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    Omoshiroi hanashi desu ne. APUG wa itsu kara nihongo ni natta kana? .

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill williams View Post
    A correction. I'm posting this all without my notes, which may not even exist anymore. It should be obvious that you can't project through an orange mask and get an orange mask on the RA4 interneg. So, you have to project through the opposite. The mask should consist of 60 cyan and 20 magenta. This will then give an orange mask on the interneg. I think that is right. I'll continue to look for my notes.

    polyglot: Yes, if you didn't have the positive to positive chemicals and papers, and didn't want a print made using digital, the likely best way to go would be to make a C41 internegative. But to do so, you have to copy the transparency onto the film, process the film, and then enlarge the film. I was looking for a way to quickly do a positive to positive and remain in the RA4 workflow. And after all that I've done, the C41 route is the only way to go if you need quality.
    I have made internegs from slides and done reversal processing both. They are both good methods for getting acceptable prints from slides, but the interneg route is better due to the limitations of the cross process.

    However, you can never introduce a mask by using filtration. All you get is "color" that duplicates the color of the mask at one density level. Remember that a mask is in the form of an orange positive image overlaid on a negative color image.

    PE

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
    It was my understanding the Mitsubishi group members were autonomous; your little equation above implies equality, more specifically, that the color paper was identical. Even if you are correct and they were owned by the same group*, that does not mean the products were the same, just as it does not mean that Lucky Color Film is identical to Kodacolor Film.

    Are you of the opinion that Konica-Minolta is owned by Mitsubishi too?

    I am given to belive that Dai Nippon bought Konika's old factory in 2006... (Dai Nippon is related to Mitsubshi) but that does not really tell me that DNP also bought Mitsubishi, or vice versa...
    Konika = DNP sounds better than Konika = Mitsubishi;
    At least as far as the paper goes....

    So what is the relationship between Mitsubishi and DNP?
    There is one, but I don't think it is as simple as your equation makes it appear.

    Anyway, this is all too "icky" for me... I guess it depends on where you draw the line... Wratten= Kodak since Kodak ate them up. But, (before they pullled out) did Kodak = Lucky?
    (I hear they had a 20% share (and perhaps 90% brains? so 110% Kodak?)

    There are side relationships and then there are vertical relationships.

    Your equation
    Mitsubishi = Konishiroku = Sakura.
    just doesn't do this subject justice...

    ... because the equality between the last two parts...
    is much greater than the equality of the first two parts.
    (Sort of reminds me of Animal Farm!)


    Ma, watashi wa so omoimasu.
    Sore dewa, mata atode.
    Well, since Konishiroku KKK was the name of the company and Sakura was the brand name of their films, that part stands up. But, Mitsubishi and Konishiroku did exchange paper information and film information according to my sources. Generally, Mitsubishi was a generation behind Konishiroku though in their product lineup much as Lucky was a generation behind current Kodak products.

    Konishiroku and Mitsubishi were in very close contact through the Konica plant in Hachioji and the Mitsubishi plant which was ??? (I've forgotten). Fuji, in Ashigara, was very much apart from the other two. Of course one of these 3 companies made film and paper for Oriental and others. It was a very complex situation to unravel from the distance of several thousand miles, and when the companies were not clear about all of these relationships.

    As the Shacho (I believe it was Nishimura) said to me, we are "owned" by Mitsubishi for all practical purposes and they expect cooperation between their subsidiaries.

    PE

  5. #35

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    Mitsubishi has several locatons, but Kyoto is the one I think. Their headquarters was in Kansai, but they do (or did) have something in Ibaragi (or was it Tsukuba?) as well. I don't doubt they helped each other (I'm speculating) but then doesn't Kodak also... for a fee?

    As you say, they were about a generation apart... so perhaps they did little more than what Agfa did for Fuji years ago... I dunno.

    Anyway, thanks for your insight! I will see what kind of info I can dig up.
    Last edited by Ray Rogers; 03-04-2010 at 11:26 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrst View Post
    Omoshiroi hanashi desu ne. APUG wa itsu kara nihongo ni natta kana? .
    Yesterday, 01:09 PM, and it all started wth a "Good bye".

    Mou soro soro, nihongo no forum ga hitsuyou to naru kamo ne.


  7. #37

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    RE: Mitsubishi / Konishiroku / Sakura -- who cares? You guys are ruining an interesting thread with your bickering.

    Whew! thanks, just had to get that off my chest.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    RE: Mitsubishi / Konishiroku / Sakura -- who cares? You guys are ruining an interesting thread with your bickering.
    Whew! thanks, just had to get that off my chest.
    Bickering? Actually, this interaction went rather well I thought.
    However, I am sorry you were displeased!
    Rich conversations, or even thoughs in general, are not always linear.
    By all means, do continue...

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
    Bickering? Actually, this interaction went rather well I thought.
    However, I am sorry you were displeased!
    Rich conversations, or even thoughs in general, are not always linear.
    By all means, do continue...
    You're right. I must have risen from the counterproductive side of my sleeping device !!

  10. #40

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    However, you can never introduce a mask by using filtration. All you get is "color" that duplicates the color of the mask at one density level. Remember that a mask is in the form of an orange positive image overlaid on a negative color image.

    PE
    My procedure is to lay down an orange positive image(done while flashing the paper with a filter pack of 60 cyan and 20 magenta and a diffuser), remove the filter pack, insert the transparency, and then expose the paper with the transparency. This does overlay a positive orange with a negative color image of the transparency. I'm not sure this is exactly what is needed for the paper internegative to be similar to a C41 internegative, but it is as you described it should be? The filter pack for the positive orange mask is not included in the path when the paper is exposed to the transparency.

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