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  1. #1
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    E-6 without reversal?

    Okay my searches aren't cutting it here and I don't have the chemicals to play with this or I would.

    Here's the deal, I may be getting some expired Velvia as part of a package deal with some other stuff I actually want and I already have some expired Provia in the freezer.

    If this deal works out I'll either need to find a way to use it all or sell it all.

    Standard process RA-4 paper and chems are the destination.

    I know I can cross process E-6 film in a C-41 process and get negatives, which is what I want, but C-41 will get me non-standard colors.

    Has anyone tried E-6 processing without the reversal step?

    If so

    Did you get a negative that was printable at a normal color balance?

    or

    Are there other options for getting printable negs?
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  2. #2
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Yes, you can do it without reversal. You will get very weird results that look somewhat solarized.

    There are examples in some Kodak data books.

    PE

  3. #3
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    You will get very weird results that look somewhat solarized.
    Thanks PE

    Doesn't sound like it's worth worth buying the E-6 chems then.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  4. #4
    DanielStone's Avatar
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    if you want regular e-6 results, get the chems then , or if you want *possibly* weirder results, use some expired e-6 chems

    -Dan

  5. #5
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Hey Dan,

    I want negatives that are printable with normal colors.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  6. #6
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Here is one with a tonne of scanner noise, because I developed it in Diafine, then fix, bleach, and colour re-develop. (Astia)


    Cant put the shadows up as the shadows start from zero density basically (lottsa scanner noise like a mobile phone cam in the dark from Epson's expensive top range of "amazing" and "professional" scanners :P).

    Anyway, but to me it appears a normal negative without any mask, but with strong colour, I would suggest you could do it, you just would need to sandwich a piece of bleach and fixed C41 film against it (or unexposed, developed, bleached and fixed C41 film) to add with the mask.. or put it in front of the backlight. That'd be a start.


  7. #7
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Encouraging!

    Quote Originally Posted by Athiril View Post
    I developed it in Diafine, then fix, bleach, and colour re-develop. (Astia)
    Since the standard E-6 1st developer is just a special B&W mix the Diafine news is no surprise.

    What is interesting is that, instead of just skipping the reversal step you replaced the reversal step with fix and bleach.

    Got lots of fix and I will have lots of bleach shortly.

    A couple questions pop into my head.

    Why bleach before the color develop?

    Which color developer did you use? (C-41 or E-6)

    Quote Originally Posted by Athiril View Post
    Anyway, but to me it appears a normal negative without any mask, but with strong colour, I would suggest you could do it, you just would need to sandwich a piece of bleach and fixed C41 film against it (or unexposed, developed, bleached and fixed C41 film) to add with the mask.. or put it in front of the backlight. That'd be a start.
    I have played successfully with printing normal black and white films (Delta/HP-5) on RA-4 paper, the filter pack was thick but workable, so I'm not too worried about the orange mask. Using a piece of film as you suggest sounds workable too.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  8. #8
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Using a fix, then bleach before colour develop makes a colour negative using a b&w first developer step, instead of a positive. For good results of a positive, I've found the first dev needs to be hot ~39c like normal, otherwise even with a good b&w neg developed, the positives tend to have an extremely dense base/fog to them on top of the image.

    For that particular image I think I just used E-6 colour developer, I've used CD-4 on others (C-41), results on E-6 film should be more or less the same, I've developed colour slides using Xtol as the first dev (40c), with C-41 as the colour developer, and the colours were fairly accurate then too.

    Reversal works like this as you know:
    b&w develop makes a silver b&w neg (on all colour layers) with no dye formation.
    reversal exposure or fogging.
    colour developer develops exposed undeveloped silver halide (positive) and oxidises simultaneously to form colour dye through the silver it develops as a mask.
    bleach to convert metallic silver to silver halide.
    fix to remove silver halide.

    The other process I use works like this:
    B&W first dev to make silver neg.
    Fix to remove remaining silver halide, leaves onloy b&w neg.
    Bleach to convert developed silver back to silver halides, which just leaves a negative image 'mask' of undeveloped silver halide.
    Exposure of silver halide to light to make it easily developable.
    Colour Developer to re-develop the negative image and form a colour negative.
    Bleach to convert again silver back to silver halide
    Fix to remove silver halide to leave no image apart from the colour dye.

    You can skip the last 2 steps for a bleach-bypass effect.

    Either way, this method allows to set tonality and contrast via first developer which the image forms through in a colour negative process, you could make a high contrast developer if you wish.. or have compensating effects (which the direct 2-bath C-41 should as well).

    Rodinal 1+100 for 1 hour works very well with this. I found the "Diafine" (mixed up from a recipe posted on here) to be a tad thin for the first developer, maybe need to make it slightly stronger, or run it through twice etc.

    Here is one when I first started.. is Rodinal 1+25 + ~5g of table salt (non-iodised) in 300ml solution on expired supermarket C-41 film, re-developed using the above process, with E-6 Colour Developer as the colour developer (which gives a green base, C-41 would probably keep it the normal colour base).

    Last edited by Athiril; 04-09-2010 at 12:57 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #9
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    A fresh question first, did you rate the film at box speed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athiril View Post
    For good results of a positive, I've found the first dev needs to be hot ~39c like normal, otherwise even with a good b&w neg developed, the positives tend to have an extremely dense base/fog to them on top of the image.
    Good info. I have no problem with using the normal 100f or better and I have plenty of Xtol, just need to work out the right times.

    Did you per chance start at 3'15" with that hot Xtol?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athiril View Post
    For that particular image I think I just used E-6 colour developer, I've used CD-4 on others (C-41), results on E-6 film should be more or less the same, I've developed colour slides using Xtol as the first dev (40c), with C-41 as the colour developer, and the colours were fairly accurate then too.
    I've got the C-41 developer so I'll be starting there. Life will be simpler if I can avoid E-6 specific chems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athiril View Post
    works like this:
    B&W first dev to make silver neg.
    Fix to remove remaining silver halide, leaves only b&w neg.
    Bleach to convert developed silver back to silver halides, which just leaves a negative image 'mask' of undeveloped silver halide.
    Exposure of silver halide to light to make it easily developable.
    Colour Developer to re-develop the negative image and form a colour negative.
    Bleach to convert again silver back to silver halide
    Fix to remove silver halide to leave no image apart from the colour dye.

    You can skip the last 2 steps for a bleach-bypass effect.
    I assume that normal times for the ancillary processes are sufficient, is that correct?
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Ana´s Nin

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Hey Dan,

    I want negatives that are printable with normal colors.
    Then make Ilfochrome prints. Get it while it's hot! It won't be around forever! It is available from Freestyle.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

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