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  1. #11

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    Are you making optical prints, or are you scanning and inverting? If scanning, it could very well be a problem with your post-processing.

  2. #12

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    Hi Mark,

    Thanks for your advice, but I do prefer filtering my negative film and getting the best possible colors in my original...

    I scan my slide film too: I don't show the real slides, and in your same way of thinking I could not filter them and just play with photoshop, but with slide film I prefer to filter... It's the same to me: the only difference is that I don't see my negatives in positive, but a better tonality is there after my filtering...

    I know digital processing of color can be more effective if the negatives are not too away -in color temperature- from the real scene...

    I understand you feel fine leaving it all to digital or enlarger filtering... Thanks!

    One more thought: the idea of negative film as a "huge latitude" media comes from the possibilities we have to change it in that intermediate process between the original and the final output, but it doesn't mean that a perfectly exposed negative frame, and another "usable" and under or overexposed one are just the same... No... Slide film, B&W film and color negative film, all have the same or close latitude... It's not true that color negative can be shot with three stops of difference and there's no color change... Those two negative color frames are just as different as what we see if we contact print a B&W negative strip with the base reaching pure black: there's just one exposure that gives us the best tone, no matter if you can "use" another one and help it and filter it with the enlarger or digitally... The differences in color negative are even more problematic than those in B&W: the changes in contrast and in tonal gradations of specific colors rendered as gray on B&W film are less problematic because everything is gray, but on color negative film, apart from variations in contrast and blocked shadows, the colors have shifts both when reaching their shadows and highlights levels, and colors easily show -on not perfectly exposed color negatives- blue shift when underexposed, and yellow shift if overexposed... The best tonal range in the original is what I prefer, and what this thread is about... Thanks again...

    Cheers,

    Juan
    Last edited by Juan Valdenebro; 08-07-2010 at 03:05 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: stripe strip

  3. #13

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    Hi Robert,

    No problem here... Just the best and most beautiful sunny tones I've got from color negative film ever, after years of color wet printing and scanning... Now I think best color negative results depend a lot on precise exposure. That's all... And yes, I spent years correcting on enlarger or photoshop, and exposing in a more relaxed way... But from now on it's another story at least to me... Thanks!

    Cheers,

    Juan

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan Valdenebro View Post
    I scan my slide film too: I don't show the real slides, and in your same way of thinking I could not filter them and just play with photoshop, but with slide film I prefer to filter... It's the same to me: the only difference is that I don't see my negatives in positive, but a better tonality is there after my filtering...

    I know digital processing of color can be more effective if the negatives are not too away -in color temperature- from the real scene...

    I understand you feel fine leaving it all to digital or enlarger filtering... Thanks!
    Okay, so it seems apparent that you are scanning your work.

    That means we are talking apples vs. oranges.

    Scanners are one trick ponies as far as exposure and their exposure range and filtration is not normally used during the second exposure, software is, so sure your results may be different for different exposures.

    I say this because discussions here at APUG center on traditional photographic processes, scanning/hybrid methods are a different world and they off topic here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juan Valdenebro View Post
    Slide film, B&W film and color negative film, all have the same or close latitude... It's not true that color negative can be shot with three stops of difference and there's no color change...
    I shoot some with a Holga and Portra so I take many exposures "as they come" since aperture and shutter speed are fixed. The only exposure control available is picking the film or using ND filters.

    With an enlarger once I get the basic filter pack right for a Holga roll, all but the most extreme under or over exposures fall right in line for color temp.

    What I think you are seeing and describing in this thread is the limit of the scanner/digital process.

    Again, that is off topic here. These hybrid discussions are welcome at http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/home.php
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  5. #15

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    Hi Mark,

    I think all this is in the right forum, as these variations are indeed present on color negative frames: their existence is purely analog...

    If you contact print a 6x6 strip of Portra 160 VC shot at -1, N, N+1 and N+2, you can see both contrast differences and color differences. Color negative is not a magical media: it's a simple light sensitive media, and it produces different color results -with a certain variation- if you give it X light or eight times that light... How could it be just the same after such a huge difference?

    But if your opinion is that all frames are color identical, your opinion is valid here too... This is how internet forums are...

    Cheers,

    Juan

  6. #16

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    I know this is a hybrid topic, but it still uses film, so here goes:

    Juan - you may want to try the CF Systems ColorPerfect Photoshop add-in for inverting and color correcting (earlier version were named ColorNeg). I've found that it works much better than any other method that I've tried. More info here:

    http://www.colorneg.com/oldneg.html?lang=en

  7. #17

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    Hi Robert,

    Thank you very much for the link: it looks interesting...

    Generally I scan just to be able to decide which frames I prefer, but when I decide it, I ask my lab to do a real scan: their color depth is better because they use a real fine scanner... Sometimes I use their drum scanner, but even their very expensive flat scanner is way above consumer grade scanners...

    The color variations I'm talking about are subtle, of course... I guess people without wet color printing and enlarger filtering training wouldn't see them clearly... From -1 to +2, gradually, we're talking about what on slide film can be produced by a very slight warming filter on an overcast day: a small but decisive variation...

    I just expected here on APUG I would get more comments really related to my first post: tonal and color temperature variations ON FILM depending on precise metering and exposure, but it seems most people just filter digitally or in an analog way, and seldom they worry about "seeing" what's on film...

    After more than 200 views (or forum members) some comments came, but none of them did add anything on the subject...

    To exaggerate a bit, and leaving aside the best comments, I had "exposure doesn't matter, you get the same on film" and "go to other forum" answers... (!)

    Cheers,

    Juan

  8. #18

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    I think 'seeing what's on the film' is difficult because color negative needs to be interpreted in the printing stage. Without a consistent reference in each shot, isn't it hard to pick apart whats really on the film in terms of an overall cast?

  9. #19

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    Hi Tim,

    Changes are evident on neutral tones going from cold to warm, even if on direct negative viewing we can't see them...

    I don't think color negative film gives the same result from -2 to +3. In fact, it doesn't give the same result within a single stop exposure difference... Anyone can test it with a pale gray subject: there will be changes no matter if you contact wet print a strip, or scan frames.

    Yes, we can filter afterwards, and we have a certain field of action within maybe one to two stops, but certainly different amounts of light affect color negative film's contrast and color temperature.

    Cheers,

    Juan

  10. #20

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    Agreed that different amounts of light affect things. Different types of light will also give different results.

    That's why its hard to figure out what's going on when there are too many variables changing. If you shoot a gray card in your light, and vary exposures, when you balance the colors for the gray card, you can see that maybe with XX exposure, the shadows are cooler while the highlights are warmer, while at YY exposure, the opposite is true. Or whatever the specific findings might be.

    When I say gray card, I don't mean JUST a gray card, but maybe a model holding a color checker, or something along those lines. A realistic scene, but with a known reference in it.

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