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  1. #11
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Shriver View Post
    You normally get very low contrast out of C-41 or C-22 film processed in a B&W developer. The base density is very high, both because of the orange mask, but because you still have the yellow filter layer between the blue-sensitive emulsion and the other two emulsions. It's "Cary Lea" silver, very finely divided silver that forms a yellow filter. It's normally removed when all of the other silver is removed during the bleach step of C-41 processing.

    Combine that with the cosmic-ray and heat fogging of an older 800 speed film, and you have serious Dmax and low contrast.
    I have not found that to be the case, though I mostly use Rodinal.

    I find I get great contrast with Rodinal, even 1+100 stand. (The example is 1+25 + table salt, and it was old expired film, anything over box EI was a bit dodgy, but 800 and 1600 cmae out well).

    Here is some I did here, it's re-developed to colour after wards (and by that i mean processed to a colour neg, not a positive/xpro), but the contrast/etc is in the same condition as the original b&w image formed by Rodinal


    Little Cousin by athiril, on Flickr

  2. #12
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    Yes, we all know Rodinal works with C-41. However, I believe John's point was with regards to a fully b&w processed neg that hasn't gone through subsequent C-41 processing. Have any of those to scan and put up?
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  3. #13
    Athiril's Avatar
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    I re-dev mine to colour negs after fixing and then bleaching it gets a regular C-41, or E-6 CD. Then bleach and fix.

    But the contrast is the effectively the same in b&w as colour, the b&w silver layers act as a mask to form the colour through, if the contrast/density range was poor, then so would it be on the resulting colour neg.

  4. #14

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    What does a black and white development followed by a normal C-41 development achieve compared to a standard C-41 development process?

    Look at a standard-processed C-41 negative, you can see that it is low in contrast compared to a b/w neg of normal contrast. Print a normal-contrast black-and-white negative on RA paper, and you will see why C-41 negs are made to be this way. RA paper is high in contrast. It works together with the low-contrast C-41 negatives to form prints of normal contrast. C-41 film has so much dynamic range and latitude because it is so low in contrast.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 10-21-2010 at 05:16 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  5. #15
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    What does a black and white development followed by a normal C-41 development achieve compared to a standard C-41 development process?

    Look at a standard-processed C-41 negative, you can see that it is low in contrast compared to a b/w neg of normal contrast. Print a normal-contrast black-and-white negative on RA paper, and you will see why C-41 negs are made to be this way. RA paper is high in contrast. It works together with the low-contrast C-41 negatives to form prints of normal contrast. C-41 film has so much dynamic range and latitude because it is so low in contrast.

    That's a bit O/T to the OP, but do I need a reason to try something? Do I need any reason to keep doing something other than I like it, or for fun?

    Coincidentally, it allows you to run all steps at 20c.

  6. #16

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    You are the one who brought up subject that you call "O/T" in the first place. I am simply asking why you do it, out of curiosity. "I can do whatever the heck I want without stating any reasons to anyone" is a given. I actually want an answer to my question. If I wanted to attack your reasoning, I would just do it, so don't think that is why I was asking.

    My comments on the contrast of C-41 materials were aimed at the fellow who said that developing C-41 film in b/w developer gives dense, low contrast results. My experience with C-41 films in b/w chemistry, like yours, is completely different than what he stated. Sure, there is lots of density in the high tones, but also lots of contrast.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  7. #17
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    You are the one who brought up subject that you call "O/T" in the first place. I am simply asking why you do it, out of curiosity. "I can do whatever the heck I want without stating any reasons to anyone" is a given. I actually want an answer to my question. If I wanted to attack your reasoning, I would just do it, so don't think that is why I was asking.

    My comments on the contrast of C-41 materials were aimed at the fellow who said that developing C-41 film in b/w developer gives dense, low contrast results. My experience with C-41 films in b/w chemistry, like yours, is completely different than what he stated. Sure, there is lots of density in the high tones, but also lots of contrast.
    I didn't think my post was O/T, I was clarifying that b&w processing gives plenty of contrast, and gave an example... there wouldn't be plenty of contrast in the final colour image if there wasn't in the b&w image, original scan has a wide histogram - indicative of a wide density range, with highlights not beyond my V500's capability, Epson puts the dMax at 3.4, but I know for a fact that is total bollocks just like their "optical" resolution claims, iirc, it's around 2.8-3.0 from experience, and these results were just a bit under that @ box speed, with a good separation (dMax - dMin, whatever the two actual values were).

    But then the standard density for Reala is spposed to hit ~2.8

    I wasn't responding to it like an attack, sorry if it seemed so.

    There are other beneficial reasons that I believe are there for re-hal processing, but I don't want to make any such statements I don't have significant evidence for.


    I had trouble with 14 year old Vision1 500T being exceptionally low contrast, or rather a very poor density range (I'm talk so far squashed together was beyond rediculous), very difficult to get a good separation from shadows to highlights, I had to mix a very high contrast developer for it... managed to stretch out 3 stops of range over most of the histogram...grainy as all hell..inaccurate colour.. but thats another story.
    Last edited by Athiril; 10-22-2010 at 12:12 AM. Click to view previous post history.

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