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  1. #1
    clayne's Avatar
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    Superia 800 in XTOL 1+0, dense!

    I recently processed a roll of fuji 800 for my roommate that had been sitting in a plastic disposable for around 10+ years (on top of the microwave at that). Well knowing that c-41 film is really silver based I knew that I could just develop with a b+w dev and be relatively alright. Well negs came out with images and exposure looks fine.

    But there's one problem though... I can barely see through them.

    Held up to the light I can see the images fine and flipped to emulsion side I can see the images. But they're beyond bulletproof. I'm just trying to make some simple contacts and get on with life but as of now I'm up to around 64 secs, wide open at f4, 8x10 coverage, with magenta maxed out, and finally getting something with mgiv rc.

    My question is what is this? Some kind of orange mask on steroids? Or is it a result of my voluntarily haphazard development time of 15 minutes? The emulsion side looks developed totally fine. It's the base side that is through the roof in darkness.

    I knew the negs would take work - I just didn't think they'd be this insane.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

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  2. #2
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Sounds fogged and/or overdeveloped.

    If you got some colour bleach you can dilute it, partially bleach the silver image, and then fix it to get to a more reasonable result.

    You can also bleach, and re-develop in C-41 or E-6 CD to get a colour neg.


    What kind of fix did you use?

  3. #3
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiril View Post
    Sounds fogged and/or overdeveloped.

    If you got some colour bleach you can dilute it, partially bleach the silver image, and then fix it to get to a more reasonable result.

    You can also bleach, and re-develop in C-41 or E-6 CD to get a colour neg.


    What kind of fix did you use?
    That's the thing the silver side looks alright from a visual examination. Looks like a fairly normal neg. Maybe a bit hot/over developed. But not blocks of black or anything.

    I'm totally cool with them being b+w and have no desire to activate the dyes. We were simply trying to see if anything was present on the film. The film itself appears to have held up quite well - at least the silver portion. Can't speak for the dyes.

    Fix was just a standard Clayton rapid fix. Just freshly mixed right before that as well.

    Like I said, the emulsion side looks normal. It's the base side that is acting like a massive light sink.

    I finally got contacts out of them by going to 128 secs and magenta at 100. The frames that came out look pretty normal with normal to low contrast - it just took a while to get there. :-)
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

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  4. #4

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    I used a good deal of old (approx 10 years out of date and stored at room temperature) Superia 800 and 1600, and even in normal C-41 developer, it had some very hearty fog. (The 1600 was much worse than one stop more fogged than the 800. I got lots of use out of the 800, but the 1600 was pretty-much useless to me.) I would imagine that a b/w development would only increase this fog, and perhaps being on top of the microwave made a difference as well. I probably would have just developed the film in C-41 myself, but at least you got something.
    2F/2F

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  5. #5
    Athiril's Avatar
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    The dyes need a colour developer. In any case, Im not sure what a 'clayton fixer' is, but perhaps they are also not fixed properly.

  6. #6
    hrst's Avatar
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    Probably a filter and/or antihalation layer made of silver? It is removed in normal color process but can't be removed in BW process without removing image. And, on the top of this, heavy fog due to age. And orange mask.

  7. #7
    Athiril's Avatar
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    I have never noticed any of that when I b&w process my C-41 film, but I use E-6 fixer.

  8. #8
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiril View Post
    The dyes need a colour developer. In any case, Im not sure what a 'clayton fixer' is, but perhaps they are also not fixed properly.
    Athiril, I am not trying to get color out of the film. C-41 is silver-based at the core. Knowing that - I used XTOL to develop it (also knowing the orange mask would be a later issue).

    I wasn't trying to get any color from this film, I was simply only interested in the exposed silver. That's what I meant when I said I wasn't interested in the dyes - they are not of use to me here.

    Clayton fixer is a typical ammonium thio based rapid fixer like all the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrst View Post
    Probably a filter and/or antihalation layer made of silver? It is removed in normal color process but can't be removed in BW process without removing image. And, on the top of this, heavy fog due to age. And orange mask.
    Thanks, this makes sense now. Although it would seem strange to use silver as an AH layer. I considered that fog would be an issue, but we're talking 128 seconds wide-open here with RC paper. After the contacts are dry I'll scan them in so people can see that the frames look normal.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  9. #9

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    You normally get very low contrast out of C-41 or C-22 film processed in a B&W developer. The base density is very high, both because of the orange mask, but because you still have the yellow filter layer between the blue-sensitive emulsion and the other two emulsions. It's "Cary Lea" silver, very finely divided silver that forms a yellow filter. It's normally removed when all of the other silver is removed during the bleach step of C-41 processing.

    Combine that with the cosmic-ray and heat fogging of an older 800 speed film, and you have serious Dmax and low contrast.

  10. #10
    clayne's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info John. The film's not that bad off actually. At least not as bad off as I expected it to be. In fact the only real issue was in getting over the base density. I ended up exposing for around 128 secs, wide-open on the enlarger lens, magenta around 80-100 as I found I was actually dialing in too much contrast in reality.

    Even the contacts I finally settled on were still a bit hot. However, if that base density were not there I don't feel getting around any contrast issues would have been that difficult - it's mainly the duration of exposure that makes printing ridiculous. I also didn't feel like putting too much time into a 12-year roll of plastic camera nonsense that I didn't even shoot in the first place.


    Scans from the contact sheet:







    Last edited by clayne; 10-21-2010 at 05:16 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

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