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  1. #11
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    RRman;

    I am sure you are right, it is just that I cannot find any confirmation. I was surprised that Ilford did not appear to discriminate between these types of product. They seemed to lump everything together.

    PE

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    <snip Ansco/Agfa>

    I have read the Ilford history and although Ilfachrome (later Ilfochrome) may be a Kodachrome type film with no couplers, it does not explicitly say so in that history, so I am not sure. I do know that Ilford had a negative and a positive film that each used a proprietary process. Both of these, at the time I was familiar with them were coupler containing films.

    PE
    The films are mentioned in a British Government Competition Commission report (.pdf download); briefly the first of these films was introduced in 1948 as 'Ilford Colour 'D''; these were non-substantive films (for the benefit of all; not containing couplers) with a different colour filter layer to avoid infringement of Kodak's patents. 'Ilfachrome' and 'Ilfochrome' were improved versions of this - the latter was closer to Kodachrome as Kodak's patents had expired. (ref; p26). Ilfocolor, the negative material, is covered on page 27. Sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere... :-)

    Ron, there was a substantive film from Ilford, called 'Colorslide' and 'Super Colorslide' (p.28). the report says it was "...very similar to Ilfochrome" - perhaps the author meant similar aesthetically rather than physically; I don't know.

    BTW, the full report can be accessed at http://www.competition-commission.or...69/029film.htm

    Later Ilfochrome and Ilfocolor films were E-6 and C-41 film from another manufacturer; Konica, apparently, according to David Kilpatrick on the linked forum.
    Last edited by kevs; 01-27-2011 at 08:49 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: snipping text from quoted material. adding 'Colorslide' info, adding link to full report.
    testing...

  3. #13
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    Kevs;

    Thanks. I was aware of Gevaert products, Agfa products, ORWO products, Soviet products, and Japanese products, but I missed out completely on the Ilford (UK) products.

    FWIW, I just bought a new box of Ilford MGIV paper today!

    PE

  4. #14

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    Kevs - I'd forgotten that Government Report, thanks for the reference. It sets out some interesting details as to the development and availability of materials in 1969.
    I wish that I'd asked my Father (and Grandfather) more about this while they were still around, but there wasn't the same interest in photo history twenty years ago, when I guess that you could still choose from a great variety of film in every local store.

    I do remember the opinion from my Father (from his keen involvement with lectures and judging on the local photo society circuit) that 1948 "Ilford Colour D" was a good film, similar and comparable with the Kodachrome of the same era, but that Ilford seemed to lose their way a bit, in color films, with they went the route of using the older ICI research rather than, say, the Ektachrome/Kodacolor direction.

    Other smaller brands then were using the alternative processes developed from the old Agfacolor.....that family of films were also competent and competitive at the time (though perhaps more popular in the European countries than in the UK), whereas none of the later Ilford Color Slide, Super-Color-slide and various color negatives could, TBH, really match the quality of other available films.

    As the report also mentions, Ilford tried very hard with some odd marketing ideas in the 1960's, like contact strips and 35mm color negs mounted individually (!) , with the free slide folders, competitions and magazines to which I referred.

    But the 60's were the time when ordinary snap-shotters began to use color neg on a larger scale, and all that they wanted was good quality film which you could buy anywhere, drop into their local pharmacy rather than mail away, then collect a simple packet of nice "en-prints".
    Which, of course, Kodacolor in C-22 gave them.
    Last edited by railwayman3; 01-28-2011 at 01:11 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #15
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    As a lab owner who processes a lot of E-6 film i on occasions see a anomaly occur with mainly fuji E-6 films Velvia and Provia. These 2 films sometimes produce an embossed effect like kodachrome. I can be processing 60 rolls at a time and out of the 60 i process maybe 1 or 2 rolls in the run will produce the effect. It never effects image quality but i do find is unusual. It is a really rare occurrence but it does occur and whenever I see it I make sure to show the client....though i think I'm the only one who gets a buzz out of it hehehe. Its like the Ghost numbers (from the backing papers) on E-6 120 film that sometimes in rare occasions show up on the film emulsion in the colour developer and then disappears by the time it hits the fix.only to reveal nothing when the film is dry.......ohhhhh spooky.
    "Its my profession to hijack time" ~ Stephen Frizza.

  6. #16
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    The relief image that appears would indicate either that something is being added or something is being subtracted in great quantity. It also implies that the layers are very thin. In Kodachrome, something is being added to very thin layers. As for other films, IDK what could be taking place.

    PE

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    The relief image that appears would indicate either that something is being added or something is being subtracted in great quantity. <snip> In Kodachrome, something is being added to very thin layers.
    It is true that the dyes formed by the K-14 process are molecularly larger than those formed in E-6?

    Ed
    "I only wanted Uncle Vern standing by his new car (a Hudson) on a clear day. I got him and the car. I also got a bit of Aunt Mary's laundry, and Beau Jack, the dog, peeing on a fence, and a row of potted tuberous begonias on the porch and 78 trees and a million pebbles in the driveway and more. It's a generous medium, photography." -- Lee Friedlander

  8. #18
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    Ed;

    Kodachrome dyes are much smaller than E6 dyes. The Kodachrome couplers must be small to diffuse into the coating, and the E6 couplers must be large to prevent them from leaving the coating during processing.

    The difference between the two that causes the relief image is the relative change in thickness wherever there is dye formed in Kodachrome films. In theory, an E6 film could show a relief image, but the change in thickness is very tiny in proportion to the thickness of the emulsion.

    PE

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Kodachrome dyes are much smaller than E6 dyes. The Kodachrome couplers must be small to diffuse into the coating, and the E6 couplers must be large to prevent them from leaving the coating during processing.
    So I would deduce from this that you couldn't make a Kodachrome-like, E-6 film just by incorporating the Kodachrome couplers into the emulsion; they would need to be modified in some way to keep them from migrating during processing (other changes to the film and/or processing notwithstanding.)
    "I only wanted Uncle Vern standing by his new car (a Hudson) on a clear day. I got him and the car. I also got a bit of Aunt Mary's laundry, and Beau Jack, the dog, peeing on a fence, and a row of potted tuberous begonias on the porch and 78 trees and a million pebbles in the driveway and more. It's a generous medium, photography." -- Lee Friedlander

  10. #20
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    Sorry, but size is not the factor in question, but rather color reproduction and sharpness. These can be done in E6 films by modification of the couplers and emulsions to gain a Kodachrome like color palette. A new Cyan coupler is probably the only thing needed.

    PE

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