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  1. #11
    brucemuir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrst View Post
    So of course it boosts blue shadows in sunny days, just like anything that boosts color saturation. If this is unwanted, select something else that does not boost saturation, like Portra 160NC or the new Portra 160.

    Or filter for it.

    Our eyes adjust so we dont see open shade as inherently blueish even if that's what it really is.

  2. #12
    hrst's Avatar
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    If you filter for blue shadows, you end up having very orange non-shadows :-). This may or may not be desirable, again. You can filter between these, but if you want to avoid both, the only possibility is to reduce color saturation.

    Without filters, yes, the balance is much more on the side of blue shadows than orange light parts, so you may end up at a "better" overall balance with filtering and it may be closer to human vision in some cases. But, Ektar is quite warm to begin with.

    The problem has at least three aspects;
    1) Our eyes adjust for overall color temperature,
    2) Our eyes adjust locally for color temperature differences even in the same scene
    3) Compared to our eye vision, Ektar exaggerates color saturation, increasing the difference between blue shadows and orange sunlight in sunny day.

    As we all know, the difference between the color temperatures increases towards evening...

    Luckily, with color neg, you can mostly do the filtering afterwards. For this purpose, overexposure is recommended. So, overexposing allows for post-compensation against blue shadows, if it is what you want. So in this regard, the internet "legend" is correct. I just wanted to point out the reasoning.

  3. #13
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrst View Post
    I have no problems in underexposing or overexposing Ektar. It's a bit more contrasty than the Portra family, but still remarkably high in latitude. "Bleeding out" and "losing number of colors" is typical internet nonsense. What does those words mean anyway? First define the problems. Then check your workflow first if you have such problems. With today's color neg films, including Ektar, the film most probably has recorded the scene perfectly. Start printing RA-4 if you are not a nuclear physicist enough to be able to use scanners and scanner software .

    Also, OMG, shadows going blue. Come on, shadows ARE blue on sunny days. Ektar is saturation-enhancing film purposely, and by definition, like Velvia in the world of slide films. So of course it boosts blue shadows in sunny days, just like anything that boosts color saturation. If this is unwanted, select something else that does not boost saturation, like Portra 160NC or the new Portra 160.
    +1

    I've hit it at +4 to +5 stops. It got dense and hence noisy from flatbed scanning. But even the brightest clouds still hold detail.


    If you want saturation + contrast in highlights such as a sunset.. you spot meter those said highlights and expose for the spot meter reading.. no adjustment.

  4. #14

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    I have a flickr group called Kodak Ektar Portraits

    There are many looks to this film. Many of the portraits are quite beautiful.

  5. #15

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    Color film goes blue/cyan in the shadows because shadows are that color. They are illuminated largely by sky light, which is blue. Normal daylight color balance (5500K or thereabout) is a combination of this same cool sky light with the warm color of sun light. In shadows or tungsten or cloudy days or whatever else, our brains do a lot of adjustment so that we don't see these colors all that extremely, but a film is not as smart as that. It is stuck at a single color balance and has no brain.

    Ektar, being a very vivid film, makes the blue shadows, or any off-daylight source of light, have an even more heavy cast than it normally would. So, it's not odd in that it "goes blue" in the shadows and cannot be corrected. All color films do that. It is just that it is a saturated film, so it will show any color cast more glaringly than most films.

    The best option for neutralizing it in the shadows is on-camera filtration. But in lieu of that, make sure the shadow areas get a healthy amount of exposure. You need to have enough dye density on all three layers of the film to allow you to have full control over color balance. Stated shortly, overexpose your film in off-daylight-colored light if you wish to attain a truly neutral color balance in the end.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 03-13-2011 at 09:34 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    Color film goes blue/cyan in the shadows because shadows are that color. They are illuminated largely by sky light, which is blue. Normal daylight color balance (5500K or thereabout) is a combination of this same cool sky light with the warm color of sun light.
    I'd be curious to hear from those who wet print Ektar and also get blue/cyan shadows, more so than other negative film. Most of the complaints I've seen are from those who scan, and in my opinion, most of that could/should have been corrected out in Photoshop.

    I don't wet print color film and I have no issues with Ektar.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Gray View Post
    Most of the complaints I've seen are from those who scan, and in my opinion, most of that could/should have been corrected out in Photoshop.
    ...not to mention discussed on DPUG instead of APUG. IMHO we really shouldn't be talking about films in relation to scanning here, and that includes using scans to judge the properties of a film. It's no real way to judge their properties as they pertain to analog printing methods. DPUG could really get rolling if the people who scan to print had their discussions there, and APUG would also benefit as a result. How many film problems posted here are indeterminable because of the variables associated with scanning?
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 03-13-2011 at 10:39 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    ...not to mention discussed on DPUG instead of APUG. IMHO we really shouldn't be talking about films in relation to scanning here, and that includes using scans to judge the properties of a film.
    That's why I said I'd be interested to hear how people who wet print this film find the shadows. Do they get blue/cyan?

  9. #19
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Gray View Post
    That's why I said I'd be interested to hear how people who wet print this film find the shadows. Do they get blue/cyan?
    I have not used Ektar, but every other color film I have used shows blue shadows. I would expect nothing different from Ektar.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ymc226 View Post
    ... Usually to get the skin tones in B&W in the shade I desire, I cut EI to half of what the box states.

    Do I do the same for color or do I just go with box speed?
    A popular recommendation is that Caucasian skin should be rendered about 1 stop lighter than middle gray. If that is the shade that you are working towards, and if I understand your exposure strategy correctly to mean you rate the film at half speed while metering directly off of skin (i.e., without any adjustment to the metered value), then I think that you are actually rating your film at box speed to begin with. In other words you would obtain the same final result if you assumed box speed and used an exposure which placed skin tones at +1 relative to a middle tone. Assuming I have all that right (please correct me if I am wrong), then a suggestion for rating Ektar at box speed does not actually imply any change in the exposure you would have used with B&W.

    The shorter answer is that I don't think you need any exposure compensation relative to what you are doing now when you shoot in color; at least in terms of obtaining the same tonal relationships.

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