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  1. #1
    Thiago Lara's Avatar
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    E6/Tetenal/Jobo - Last Questions

    First of all, I would like to thank this wonderful community for all the information. I'm a 27 brazillian photographer, almost nobody is doing film here anymore, so I'm on my own with google. And APUG is the best source ever, period.

    My setup is a Jobo CPA with the lift and the 2820 tank (can take one reel with 2 120 films in it), the chemicals are Tetenal and I'm doing 120 film. I did read everything about kodak 6 baths beeing better but it doesn't exist here. Just to give you an idea, I'm paying R$ 400 (local currency) for a 5L E6 Tetenal kit. That's 245 US dollars, or 175 Euros. Also I have to import film from ebay because a chrome roll here costs something like 25 US dollars, when you can find any. That's why I'm asking so much before starting, the hardest part for me here is to find material and I don't want to spend too much on tests.

    So here's my plan:

    I'll mix 1L, as the Tetenal kit's manual says, it's sufficient for 12 films. I'm planning to split it in 6 166ml parts, and use them one shot, one part for each pair of film.

    Pre-heat 5'00''
    FD 7'00''
    Washing 2'30''
    CD 6'00''
    washing 2'30''
    Blix 6'00''
    washing 4'00''-
    Stab 1'00''

    And then dry the transparencies with a hair blower

    My questions:

    1-Is that right? Do I need any adjustment in times doing this way? Is 166ml enough to cover two films in the same reel on the 2820? Here on the tank it says "Rotation: 40ml", does this means that any amount superior than 40ml will be sufficient to cover TWO rools in one reel? Also about the times: I'm using 7'00'' for the FD because Tetenal says it in the manual, for rotary process.

    2-Pre rinse or not? If I pre rinse, shoud I shorten the first developer time?

    3-Do I need to warm the stock solutions and/or the water in order to mix the working solutions?

    4-Distilled water or not? Should I use it just in the solutions or for the washing also? I don't even have a filter here, since water here in São Paulo is kinda dirty I drink and cook with mineral water.

    5-For the washing, I understand that I have to change the water in the tank every 30 sec. How much water should I throw into the tank? The same amount of chemicals that I'm using or the maximum that the tank can hold?

    6-The agitation must be 75 rpm, one way, right? I mean, Jobo can be set to intercalate agitation in clockwise and counter clockwise, or in continous movement in just one way. Which one should I use?

    7-About Fuji films: Is really necessary to give more time on first developer? I read something like +30 sec for Astia and Provia and +60 sec for "others fuji films". Is that right?

    8-I've been reading that Stab will make a foam mess in tank and reel. How should I rinse the film in the Stab? Should I use a spare container and leave the film inside of it out of the reel? How?

    9-Can I be cheap and try to do something with this chemicals after using this way or will they be totally exausted? (as I expect to happen)

    10-My plan in the future is to find the Jobo tank with 3 reels so I can develop 6 films at a time, using 500ml one shot and the same times above. Is that right? Why does the manual says 6'15'' for 1-2 films in 500ml and also 6'30'' for 1-6 films in 500ml? I'm actually a bit confused about the FD's time and it's variations.

    11-Can I mix different E6 films in the same drum?

    Thank you,

    Thiago Lara.

  2. #2
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    1) I would pre-heat more. You also have to bring all the plastic, the basins, the chemistry in temperature. The motor does not "suffer" for preheating as there is no chemistry in the tank, so it is very light to rotate. I pre-heat for 20 minutes or so.

    2) I now pre-rinse with two 30-seconds baths. I recover the water in a graduated cylinder and measure it to see if there is any leakage before beginning treatment. Jobo tanks can be tricky, you thing they are tightly closed when they are not. I use 7:30 for the first development and the first use of chemistry. I use one-shot chemistry which I actually use twice (see below). The second time I develop for 8:00. Rotating processors seem to need a bit more time than other techniques. Notice that I count developing times from when I start pouring to when I start emptying. Times are for Sensia 100 ISO exposed at box speed.

    3) Just don't use too-cold water. Water at room temperature is perfectly right for mixing.

    4) If you have normal quality water you should use normal water, and use distilled water only for the final bath. That's what I do. If I had water of dubious quality I would use cheap oligomineral water (low total mineral content) for all baths except the final one.

    5) Good question! I have this doubt myself. I tend to develop 1 roll at a time in a Jobo 1520 (140ml) but just pour in 250ml for every wash. That's because it's easier, as I fill the graduated cylinders in the Jobo CPP-2 without measuring how much water I pour in. I suppose that while rinsing there is no problem if you use too much water. Maybe the rinsing is a bit slower (less swirling) but I always wash very carefully anyway.

    6) The majority seems to favour inversion. Jobo literature recommends inversion for slides IIRC. I use inversion. I disable inversion during the pre-heat, which I operate at F speed (slow). Before beginning I activate inversion and set the speed slightly beyond P.

    7) Probably yes. I never developed anything by myself which was not Fujichrome. I found that 7:30 is right here. I set my Jobo at 38.3° and let temperature stabilize at 38.3° (it will oscillate anyway a bit, around 0.4° above and below, even after two hours of stabilization). That means chemical reactions should happen at around 38.0°. It's not so important if the temperature bath is 37.8°, 38.0° or 38.2°. What's important is having a repeatable procedure. Don't worry too much about the time. Start with 7:30 and you will have acceptable results, I do believe. 30" plus or minus is a very minor tweaking that you will make observing results. "Fine tuning" so to speak.

    8) Two schools of thought here. One says never have the plastic reels touch the final bath. Jobo belongs to this school. The other says don't worry about that, just wash the reel carefully after treatment. I belong to the latter. I open the tank, take the entire reel, put it slowly inside a glass container with final rinse, agitate the reel for 20", let the reel in the bath for a further 1 minute or more, than "fish" the reel and while keeping it horizontal I separate the two halves and take away the top one. I now clip the clip on the extremity of the film, and raise it to the drying cupboard. I pay attention not to touch the film with my hands, and normally manage to do so.

    9) The instructions of my chemistry (Ornano E-6 kit) say I can reuse one time the one-shot chemistry, with the only precaution that I should prolong 1st development by 30". If you do it, it's better if you:
    - Make the second treatment within a short time from the first. I do it within 24 hours;
    - Introduce a wash between bleach and fix (if you intend to reuse the chemistry).

    Using blix I would just observe results.
    I've read reports in one Italian forum of somebody who reused one-shot chemistry way beyond recommended times. You should evaluate if the results satisfy you. Keep in mind that rotative processors make the chemistry swirl, and therefore oxidise, quite a lot.

    Read the instructions for your kit. The instruction for a Kodak E-6 kit said no reuse was possible. Again, that might only mean that there is a very slight reduction in quality between first and second soup. Considering the high cost of your chemistry, I would try to use it at the very least two times for one-shot preparations. Check that the producers recommends one-shot use of their chemistry.

    10) Don't worry about 15" differences. IIRC 1 minute corresponds to less than half a stop difference. When you have a big tank (many films) it takes more time to pour chemistry in and out. So maybe that explains the difference.

    11) In theory yes. In practice some people reports strange effects. If you do, it's probably better if you pre-wash your films (you take away that kind of washable chemistry that you see colouring the pre-wash water, you don't know what side-effects that might have). Commercial laboratories soup all slides in the same tanks so I think it is basically doable.
    Last edited by Diapositivo; 05-14-2011 at 06:14 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  3. #3
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    Regarding costs, I suggest you buy Tetenal Protectan or a similar product (that's a mixture of propane and butane gas) that's a heavy (caution: inflammable) gas that "sits" on top of the chemistry to isolate it from air (and its oxygen). You just spray inside the container for a few seconds, then close the container. This is especially important for first developer and colour developer but, in general, considering the cost of your chemistry, I would use it for all chemicals. A can will last for years.

    Maybe some propane/butane gas mixture for cigarette lighters would work just the same, I suggest you ask around.

    I suggest you read the threads about chemistry conservation. Some people freezes the undiluted chemistry, some people freezes the final solution. I don't freeze because my producer strongly discourage it. I just use Protectan and stock chemistry above 13° C in winter. In summer, I just keep it in a "fresh" corner of the house. I expect my undiluted chemistry to remain quite adequate for years. I dilute chemistry only before using it.

    Fabrizio
    Last edited by Diapositivo; 05-14-2011 at 06:17 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  4. #4
    Thiago Lara's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the information, Diapositivo.

    I'm gonna try it today. Just discovered the minimum amount of chemicals for my tank with two films, 270ml. So I'll do it 0,5l and reuse two times exactly like Jobo instructions for Tetenal Kit.

    I'm just concerned about the Stabilizer bath. I'm not doing it in the reel cause I only have one tank and one reel, so I have to wash'em quickly to run the next bath.

    Jobo says to just throw the rolls in a separate container, but being rolls, I think the film will not get an even contact with the stabilizer. Is that relevant? What's the proper way to run roll film trough the Stabilizer bath off the reel?

    Thanks in advance,

    TL.

  5. #5
    L Gebhardt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thiago Lara View Post
    And then dry the transparencies with a hair blower
    Don't use a hair dryer. Just hang them in a dust free place. An unused shower is great. Turn on the hot water for a few minutes to make steam which helps settle the dust out of the air. The hair dryer will embed dust in you we emulsion. Once it's dry you can't remove it.

  6. #6
    Thiago Lara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Gebhardt View Post
    Don't use a hair dryer. Just hang them in a dust free place. An unused shower is great. Turn on the hot water for a few minutes to make steam which helps settle the dust out of the air. The hair dryer will embed dust in you we emulsion. Once it's dry you can't remove it.
    I read something here in APUG (I think it was PE) saying that the heat from the drying with hot air is important for the development.

    Oh my God! What should I do now?

    And about the final Stabilizer bath off the reels... any suggestions?

  7. #7
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    When I tried to open the reel and let the film splash on the stabilizer I noticed that the film being curled tended to stick to itself (the back of one spire against the emulsion of the next spire), so in order to have a proper bathing one should take some prongs and move the film here and there. The final bath is very short (some say 20") so it's not really something complicated, if you use the "splash with prongs" method you would probably better have the operation last for 2 or 3 minutes.

    Personally I run the second "run" of film in the same chemistry within 24 hours, not necessarily immediately after the first "run". Typically I do the first run the evening, and the second run the day after.

    I use a film dryer, which uses a stream of warm air but has an air filter on top, so air is filtered before coming into contact with film. The hair-dryer is not a good idea for what said.

    Somebody suggest to let the shower run with hot water, until the room is fool of mist. Then let the mist sit, hang the film over the shower, close the bathroom door and don't enter into the bathroom until the film is dry. The mist will cause all the dust to fall to the ground. Not entering the bathroom is important because one must avoid any air stirring in the room to avoid dust to begin flying in the air again. If you are in the bathroom while the film dries, your movement will agitate air and cause dust to land on the film.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr



 

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