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  1. #1
    Mike Wilde's Avatar
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    hydroxylamine sulfate substitution options for c-41 DiY developer?

    I DIY mix most of my colour film developers. Thre are excellent formulae out there, as well as some more than suspect.

    One of the C-41 constituents ingredients is a dye neutralizer, as I understand it, called hydroxylamine sulfate. I refered to it as HAS.

    I know it is not the nicest compound in the world, and treat it with respect, wrt storage, ventilation while mixing and the use of appropriate PPE use when handling HAS.

    My stock of HAS is getting low, and my old domestic supplier of the stuff, JD Photochem is no longer trading.

    The Formulary makes it but is not allowed to export it outside of the USA. I can totally understand why. This stuff has other than colour photographic possibilities to be a precursor for all sorts of nefarious agents.

    I have inherited a defunct biochem blood products research lab stock of chemistry. Part of these stocks includes a modest 25 or so grams of hydroxylamine hydrochloride. It too, I know, needs to be handled with respect.

    It is deliquescent, but I suspect my HAS is also, to some degree. My HAS's texture has changed in the plastic bag inside the plastic jar I store it in over rthe 5 years that I have had it.

    I am trying to figure ot what the opportunities there may be to make an equimolar substitiution on the hydroxylamine component out of the (NH3OH) HCl alternate instead of the (NH3OH)2SO4 normal component.

    I am not an organic, or inorganic chemist (electrical engineer, actually). I suspect that the HAS in solution breaks down to its ionic constituents. The NH3OH, which is the oxidizer, consumes the surplus dye stuffs.

    The Sulfate ions, well apart from perhaps gobbling any available H ions to influnce the pH of the solution, I am not sure what they do to the other silver reduction-dye forming reactions.

    If my thoery of ionic action holds as perhaps being correct, then my initial thinking is if I use an equimolar NH3OH component, it will merrily go on it's way as though it came from a sulfate salt solution.

    The way the HCL will react is the biggest unknown. I suspect it may act as a restrainter, weaker in action than the nominated restrainers, potassium bromide and iodide, but enough that the molar conribution of the bromides and iodides may need to be adjusted.

    I know that the pH will have to be adjusted more to bring the pH in line with the target level if I make the substitution.

    Can other more knowing souls passs comments on on this idea?

    Alternately could they at least point me to chemical tomes that will perhaps set right my confused half knoweldge of the fuctioning of the chemistry that I have set out here?
    my real name, imagine that.

  2. #2

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    I have a small bottle of HAS and CD-4. If you were near me I would give them to you. I bought them more than 10 years ago. I believe the HAS won't change over time but the CD-4 is probably oxidized and no good any more.

  3. #3

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    As a chemist I see no reason why you couldn't substitute the hydrochloride salt if you correct for the change in molecular weight. You would use 0.85 times as much.
    Last edited by Gerald C Koch; 05-31-2011 at 01:11 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  4. #4
    mts
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    If I recall correctly, the HCl salt was used in C-22 and I agree that it will likely substitute with appropriate molar correction. PE, please correct me if I am mistaken or just plain wrong.
    By denying the facts, any paradox can be sustained--Galileo

  5. #5
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    Flexicolor and Fuji Developer (just the dev) is pretty cheap imho.

    In any case, if you're using it one-shot and not replenishing, mix it up as you need it sans HAS?

    Your other option is to import it yourself. You have to do your own customs brokerage and pick it up at the nominated port if you get it FOB, or have a third party do it for you (there will be some that specialise in that), or have the sender send it CIF (arrives to your door).

    I recommend contact the seller and asking for both CIF and FOB price for 1kg to your destination.
    http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/45..._10039_54.html

    Another 1kg min supplier:
    http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/32...nesulfate.html

    25kg min suppliers:
    http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/45..._10039_54.html

    "1 box" min of 25g bottles (box size isnt specified)
    http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/45...e_sulfate.html
    http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/31...e_sulfate.html


    Indian supplier (often easier to deal with) - no MOQ given, so ask for the CIF and FOB price on the MOQ and what the MOQ is
    http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/10..._Sulphate.html

  6. #6
    Mike Wilde's Avatar
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    Thank you for all of the comments to date.

    I hope to experiment with the hydrochloride salt version in the next few months.

    I will try to get the densitometer numbers recorded on equally exposed identical film Macbeth target tests.

    Maxwell: I have old BJP annual's (somewhere) that could verify your C-22 musings on using the hcl salt version.

    Thank you on that lead


    The advise expressed so far could allow me to more definitively answer what the effect of the substituion may be when compared to the more 'regular to me' sodium salt standard is.

    Now to verify Jerry's suggested .85 mass substitution. Where did I tuck away that fold out 8.5x11 periodic table??

    The side tracking of getting back to this post was spent wandering though the recently discovered sciencemadness.org library to review NH3OH salt fabrication options.

    I was able to actually bill a lot of the reading on sceience madness to a project here at work, because of some coal tar contamination design issues.

    We are trenching though an old gas works site to lay new underground communication and power ducts that run along a road about to be widened. It tweaked to me that the xylenes and other hydrocarbon and aldehyde goodies in the undistilled coal tar, if it is concentrated enough, is actually likely to dissolve the standard PVC ducts the cleint usually nominates.

    It looks like RTRC ducting may be needed. RTRC is a type of reinforeced epoxy ducting that is impervious to almost everything.
    my real name, imagine that.

  7. #7
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    HAS is a developer stabilizer for color developers. HAHCl can be used instead but it does change the curve shape a tad, especially with color papers. An alternative is Di Ethyl Hydroxyl Amine Oxalate. It is about the color of Molasses but not quite as thick. It is available as this syrup in the US.

    PE



 

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