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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcallow
    I would agree that most photographers, especially those working in colour have their film processed and prints made by others.

    I do know very few photographers who at some point did not learn how to competently manage if not master the printing process. It is not a process that is all that difficult to do competently and is something that most photographers should know very well if they are to fully realize their creative ambitions.

    My attempts at producing art are strongly supported by my printmaking. I could not delegate printing at this point in my career. I can imagine myself, in the future, brow beating some poor printer with my colour/dodging/burning requirements, but then I will have some knowledge of what is I require and the experience to know if it is feasible.

    My opinion is, of course, just that. It is based upon my anecdotal experiences and is humbly offered.
    Well said peachbutt.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    Sandy
    I find this statement from you to be , well.....rather hypocritical. With all of the work you do testing film, and fiddling in front of a computer getting a computer neg just right for your alt printing, it seems that you definately put forth the effort for a BW print. Does the technicalities and learning curve of BW hinder the image making? Or does it all work to create the final vision? Could it possibly be the same for the color photographer?
    Gee Mark, I don't know what you find hypocritical about what I wrote, which was simply that, 1) "the great color artists of this and other periods have had their work printed by someone else about 98% of the time, and 2) the technical demands of color printing have always been such that printing one's own work is not compatible with image making when one is a working professional and trying to earn a living. Now, those are my opinions based on my knowledge of color photography and artists who work in color. If you believe that I am mistaken in those statements then show me how.

    I was not advocating in the original message any particular approach, only stating what I believe to be facts. With rare exceptions, Elliot Porter being one of them, very few of the great color photographers have printed their own work. Now what the hell is hypocritical about that?

    Sandy

  3. #43

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    Maybe hypocritical was too strong a word, Sorry. My point was: you said "(2) the technical demands of color printing have always been such that printing one's own work is not compatible with image making when one is a working professional and trying to earn a living." and I was saying that the same could be said, rather easily, of BW photography or alt processes. WHat makes one less technical than the other. I have yet to heara color printer talk about even half the technical details that are thrown about quite freely when you and other knowledgeable people talk about BW exposure, printing, testing, and processing.

    Look at the amount of time you spend testing film and talking about the importance of proper testing of paper and film and the proper matching of the two. Look at all of the different ways of developing, and even developers that each create their own look and feel. How could anyone feel this is not technical. Photography and photographic printing are both, by definition, very technical and if one wants to express their vision in photography then the technical goes right along with the image making.

    How is a working color photographer any different than a working BW photographer, and do you feel that one should send their BW printing out for someone else to do because the "technical demands" get in the way of image making?

    This is not a one is better or worse than the other statement. I just don't see the logic behind your statement.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    Gee Mark, I don't know what you find hypocritical about what I wrote, which was simply that, 1) "the great color artists of this and other periods have had their work printed by someone else about 98% of the time, and 2) the technical demands of color printing have always been such that printing one's own work is not compatible with image making when one is a working professional and trying to earn a living. Now, those are my opinions based on my knowledge of color photography and artists who work in color. If you believe that I am mistaken in those statements then show me how.

    I was not advocating in the original message any particular approach, only stating what I believe to be facts. With rare exceptions, Elliot Porter being one of them, very few of the great color photographers have printed their own work. Now what the hell is hypocritical about that?

    Sandy
    Gee sandy relax. I can't speak for Mark, but what I disagree with is the statement that the time and expertise of making a colour print somehow acts as a barrier to producing an income or creating art.

    I find making my own prints is much cheaper than going to a lab and takes very little time. I can make a colour print in the darkroom far faster than I can scan/CC/spot/size and output to <pick a digital device> -- I earn a living doing both. I can't print as fast as the time it takes to drop my film off and pick-up my prints, but I can print as well as any lab I've gone to and, as I said it is cheaper. I also feel that the print is the "performance" and is best done by the person who created the "score."

    I don't disagree that most photographers, great and small, have most of their processing done by others. I do doubt that this is the best avenue toward achieving the best print.

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  5. #45

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    Jon

    do you find that the technical barriers stood, or stand in the way of image making?
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  6. #46
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    Jon

    do you find that the technical barriers stood, or stand in the way of image making?
    If that is directed at me, I don't find any technical barriers; in fact I find it an integral part of image making.

    john

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  7. #47

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    Sorry forgot the H.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  8. #48
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    Sorry forgot the H.
    No problem -- the mr callow is a joke (that only those who know me [especiallyy the other callows] find funny)

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  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcallow
    Gee sandy relax. I can't speak for Mark, but what I disagree with is the statement that the time and expertise of making a colour print somehow acts as a barrier to producing an income or creating art.

    I also feel that the print is the "performance" and is best done by the person who created the "score."

    I don't disagree that most photographers, great and small, have most of their processing done by others. I do doubt that this is the best avenue toward achieving the best print.

    But the fact remains that there have been very few well known color photographers who printed their own work, and that fact speaks for itself as far as I am concerned. I have no doubt but that most of them could have learned to make excellent color prints but in the end they chose to leave these work to trained technicians. As to whether this is the best avenue to achievieng the best print, I think it depends on process. If you are talking about C-prints, yes, they are relatively easys to make, but if you want a color carbon best to have someone else make it for you in my opinion.

    Sandy

  10. #50
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    Sandy,
    The fact that there have been very few well known color photographers who printed their own work, and that fact speaks for itself as far as you are concerned.

    Then you go on to say:
    As to whether this is the best avenue to achievieng the best print, I think it depends on process. If you are talking about C-prints, yes, they are relatively easys to make, but if you want a color carbon best to have someone else make it...


    I will surmise from your last post that what you are saying is that doing your own prints is a good thing, not a technical, creative or commercial barrier, but photographers of stature don't often do it (and that says what?).
    Last edited by mrcallow; 11-24-2004 at 09:05 AM. Click to view previous post history.

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