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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach
    Well, to make this a fair comparison, have the prints made with pigmented inks twenty years ago faded more or less than the chemical color prints?
    Well, since you ask the answer is that the color carbon prints I made with pigmented inks twenty or so years ago have not faded at all, in comparision to the C and R prints that have faded terribly. The carbon prints, even though that have been hanging in fairly bright areas of my house for fifteen years or more, show absolutely no sign of fading.


    Sandy

  2. #62
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    Well, since you ask the answer is that the color carbon prints I made with pigmented inks twenty or so years ago have not faded at all, in comparision to the C and R prints that have faded terribly. The carbon prints, even though that have been hanging in fairly bright areas of my house for fifteen years or more, show absolutely no sign of fading.
    I wasn't asking about "Color Carbon" ... I was thinking of "Ink Jet" . I'm fairly sure that Ink Jet technology was in its infancy back then... and probably not very permanent.

    My point - I should have been more blunt - was that materials have changed a great deal in the last twenty or so years. While I do not have quantative information, I think that the longevity of modern materails is far greater than it was twenty years ago.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  3. #63
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    Kodak makes the claim that the endura papers are the equal to pigmented inks regarding longevity. Fuji CA is about half that.

    *

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach
    I wasn't asking about "Color Carbon" ... I was thinking of "Ink Jet" . I'm fairly sure that Ink Jet technology was in its infancy back then... and probably not very permanent.

    My point - I should have been more blunt - was that materials have changed a great deal in the last twenty or so years. While I do not have quantative information, I think that the longevity of modern materails is far greater than it was twenty years ago.
    Well, if that is what you meant a better comparison might be that of the longevity of the first C-prints made in the 30s or 40s with some of the first prints made with pigmented ink sets in the early 2000s, say those from the Epson 2000P.

    From my perspective there is no question but that the making of color prints with pigmented dye sets and inkjet printers, a technology barely in its infancy, is already equal to or superior to all versions of C-printing in terms of longevity of the print. Most independent testing clearly shows this to be the case.

    Sandy

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcallow
    I will surmise from your last post that what you are saying is that doing your own prints is a good thing, not a technical, creative or commercial barrier, but photographers of stature don't often do it (and that says what?).
    that they were/are more concerned with taking a photogorpah than messign around in the darkroom when they could pay a skilled technician/craftsman to do just that (as do a number of well regarded B&W photographers)

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan. L-B
    A slight change of tack but staying on course:

    An artist or craftsman, including photographers, that do not, perform each and every stage of an artistic production by his own hand is not fully in control, and therefore cannot be considered to have reached fulfilment or be truly competent. Commercial viability should never enter into the equation.

    Must now keep my head down below the parapet!
    You mean like sculptors who employ craftsmen at foundrys to cast their work? Or artists who emply master pritners to produce lithographs of their work?

    "Commercial viability" the commercial viablilty is the artists time - do they spend say 50% of their time fiddling around in the darkroom, or do they employ a master pritner who will produce work at least equal to theirs and possibly better and use that extra 50% to be actually taking photographs

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcallow
    Kodak makes the claim that the endura papers are the equal to pigmented inks regarding longevity. Fuji CA is about half that.
    However, Kodak "longevity" years are rather like dog years - rather shorter than everyone elses - they apply different sets of standards to get their results if I remember correctly - you can cut the Kodak figures in about half to come up with how their longevity compoares to either Wilhelm's or Fuji's (much more widely accepted) testing methods

  8. #68
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim atherton
    "Commercial viability" the commercial viablilty is the artists time - do they spend say 50% of their time fiddling around in the darkroom, or do they employ a master pritner who will produce work at least equal to theirs and possibly better and use that extra 50% to be actually taking photographs
    And that is different from Black and White printing ... how?

    If I ever find a ""Master printer" who has the same sense of aesthetics as I do, or whom I can communicate with as effectively as I can with myself ... I'll be severely tempted. I'm NOT holding my breath until I do.

    Interesting that you should divorce "darkroom work" from "taking photographs."
    In My Humble Opinion, it is all part of the same process.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim atherton
    You mean like sculptors who employ craftsmen at foundrys to cast their work? Or artists who emply master pritners to produce lithographs of their work?

    "Commercial viability" the commercial viablilty is the artists time - do they spend say 50% of their time fiddling around in the darkroom, or do they employ a master pritner who will produce work at least equal to theirs and possibly better and use that extra 50% to be actually taking photographs
    A lot of what you describe is a physical or financial impossibility the artist faces to produce the finished work. It just doesn't seem like a huge ordeal in my eyes for the photographer to print their own color vs. having a sculpture poured or carved out of a mountain, etc. We're talking a darkroom, enlarger, paper, chems. All of which is probably cheaper and LESS time consuming than organising and overseeing someone else do the work. Are some of these artists making excuses for convenience that are a bit more than they want us to realize? I have 4 of Callow's color prints and they are stunning, and he has honed his printing skills -so I believe it is far from an inconvenience or time waster for him to print his own work. I would much rather own work from a photographer who has printed the work themselves. The work being done by the artist from A-Z is a statement in itself.. just my 2c worth of barstool babble..

  10. #70
    lee
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    I have always made my own B/w's and let the color work go outside. One working professional explained it to me this way: At that time his day rate was $300 per day. It took 3 days in the darkroom for every day shooting. That is potentially a $900 hickey to do your own darkroom work. Made sense to me at that time. I don't and have never done enough color work to justify the expense of a color darkroom so for me shoot the color film and let someone else do the work.

    lee\c



 

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