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  1. #11
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    I've just answered a private mail that reports the reuse times for an old Tetenal kit. The reuse times are given for each "quarter" of capacity. Considering that using 140ml if I used the chemistry 3 times I would develop 21 rolls per litre, which is beyond normal specification of 18 rolls per litre, I consider 2 treatments per bath. I will develop 2 x 7 rolls per litre. That's 14 rolls per litre which is in the lower half of the 12 - 20 of capacity per litre declared by compard. That also leaves me some room for the developing of 400 ISO and faster film.

    Considering exhaustion, I came out with the following times: first pass 3:23 (just like suggested by Polyglot), second pass 3:53. Those are the averages for the first and second quarter of exhaustion, and the third and fourth quarter of exhaustion. Actually those times might be shortened a little bit as I don't really arrive to 4/4 of exhaustion, making only 14 rolls per litre.

    If considering a 10% reduction for rotative processing, that would become 3:02 first pass and 3:29 for the second pass, but I don't consider the 10% reduction when I make E-6 and I see that also compard does not take this into account.

    So the first rolls will be at 3:23 first pass, 3:53 second pass, and from there I'll see what modification to apply. I'll post here all the timings I find. Or for what said above I will trim a bit, so 3:15 canonical and 3:45 which are more "round" numbers to remember.

    Certainly the small details (dead times, pouring, etc) will have an impact and so I will not worry more about times until I see the results and reason from that.

    Thanks a lot
    Fabrizio
    Last edited by Diapositivo; 06-26-2011 at 10:18 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  2. #12

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    When I got home yesterday I looked through my archive of photo-processing literature. I was surprised to find that I still had a copy of the instruction sheet for a Beseler CN-2 Liquid Color Negative Processing Kit.

    The back of the 8-page 21.6cm x 27.7cm booklet is marked, “Printed in West Germany.” The kit was made by Tetenal. It was distributed by both the Beseler enlarger company and Jobo Phototechnic with differently marked packaging for each seller.

    The Beseler branded kit was about 5% cheaper. I have no idea why. I tried both kits and inside the box everything was identical except for the brand label.

    This was a 3-step kit: Step 1 = developer. Step 2 = blix (bleach and fixer in a single solution), Step 3 = stabilizer. It gave perfect results on my 35mm, 120, 4” x 5”, and 8” x 10” films.

    Here are the main points. I inserted a few comments in brackets.

    Standard Processing Sequence

    The chart for standard processing lists the proper sequence for the Beseler CN-2 process. This basic sequence should be followed for all of your processing. Because the actual development process takes place in Step 1, modification of the normal time will affect the final image.

    Time changes will be required and vary depending upon processing temperature, film type and quantity of film processed. The TIME/TEMPERATURE TABLES list alternate times for Step 1. Step 2, final wash times, and timing for Step 3 are constant for a given temperature and do not vary from the standard sequence.

    [What follows is for hand tank processing. Later, the instructions tell us to reduce Step 1 and Step 2 times by 10% for machine processing.]

    The following are: Step, 24C time, 30C time, 38C time and Agitation

    Step 1, 16:00, 8:00, 3:15, continuous for first 15 seconds, then once every 15 seconds.

    Step 2, 10:00, 8:00, 6:00, continuous for first 15 seconds, then once every 15 seconds.

    Wash, 7:00, 5:00, 3:00, running water or water change every 30 seconds with constant agitation.

    Step 3, 1:00, 1:00, 1:00, First 5 seconds only.


    Temperature tolerance for Step 1 is +/- 0.5C. All subsequent steps are +/- 4C. Step 3 temperature is 24C in all three columns above [I don’t agree with this. If the other solutions are 38C, then Step 3 should be the same to prevent the possibility of temperature-change induced reticulation]

    Note: The loaded film tank should be inserted in the water bath at least 5 minutes prior to processing in order to stabilize its temperature [In my case, I always presoak the film in tempered water for a minute or two before starting processing.] Refer to the TIME/TEMPERATURE TABLES and the CAPACITY OF SOLUTIONS chart for additional information.

    [The CAPACITY OF SOLUTIONS chart is set up for a one-half liter kit. Some of the film sizes are obsolete so I only give the common ones still in use.]

    Capacity of Solutions

    135-36, 120 = 8 rolls, 220 = 4 rolls, sheet film = 640 square inches.


    Time/Temperature Tables

    The standard processing sequence for C-41 type films suggests processing at 38C; however, excellent results can be obtained at any of the other temperatures listed. Lower temperatures may be more convenient to work with in some places, while the higher temperatures offer a faster processing time. Regardless of the temperature chosen, all processing solutions and wash temperatures should be the same.


    For ISO 200 and Slower Films [This divides the capacity into quarters.]


    Step 1 [Hand tank]


    24C, First 1/4 = 16:00, Second 1/4 = 18:00, Third 1/4 = 20:00, Fourth 1/4 = 22:00

    30C, First 1/4 = 8:00, Second 1/4 = 9:00, Third 1/4 = 10:00, Fourth 1/4 = 11:00

    38C, First 1/4 = 3:15, Second 1/4 = 3:30, Third 1/4 = 3:45, Fourth 1/4 = 4:00



    For ISO 400 and Faster Films [Only three divisions due to the greater chemical depletion of fast film]


    Step 1 [Hand tank]


    24C, First 1/4 = 16:00, Second 1/4 = 19:00, Third 1/4 = 21:30, NA

    30C, First 1/4 = 8:00, Second 1/4 = 9:30, Third 1/4 = 11:00, NA

    38C, First 1/4 = 3:15, Second 1/4 = 3:45, Third 1/4 = 4:00, NA


    [Now I’ll repeat the table for ISO 200 and slower films for machine processing based on the 10% reduction for continuous agitation. Check the times because I might have made an error in calculation.]

    For ISO 200 and Slower Films [This divides the capacity into quarters.]

    Step 1 [Machine Processing]


    24C, First 1/4 = 14:24, Second 1/4 = 16:12, Third 1/4 = 18:00, Fourth 1/4 = 19:48

    30C, First 1/4 = 7:12, Second 1/4 = 8:06, Third 1/4 = 9:00, Fourth 1/4 = 9:54

    38C, First 1/4 = 2:55, Second 1/4 = 3:09, Third 1/4 = 3:22, Fourth 1/4 = 3:36

  3. #13
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Times in a "normal" process include "crossover", so for 3:15; pour the developer in with the tank rotating and start the clock then dump the tank at about 3:00. Development actually continues. At 3:15 pour in the bleach. The bleach stops the development and does the rest of it's work.

    The only time that is target critical is the developer time. The rest of the chems "go to completion" so extra time, like doubling or tripling, has no real penalty and is cheap insurance with reused chems, and without replenishment.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  4. #14
    polyglot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diapositivo View Post
    Considering exhaustion, I came out with the following times: first pass 3:23 (just like suggested by Polyglot), second pass 3:53. Those are the averages for the first and second quarter of exhaustion, and the third and fourth quarter of exhaustion. Actually those times might be shortened a little bit as I don't really arrive to 4/4 of exhaustion, making only 14 rolls per litre.
    3:53 seems a bit long, considering Fuji recommend about 3:40 or 3:45 for the last fifth of their rated capacity.

    If considering a 10% reduction for rotative processing, that would become 3:02 first pass and 3:29 for the second pass, but I don't consider the 10% reduction when I make E-6 and I see that also compard does not take this into account.
    I understood the 3:15 time to be for continuous agitation.

  5. #15
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polyglot View Post
    I understood the 3:15 time to be for continuous agitation.
    yes
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  6. #16
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    Thanks for your help.

    I'm going to go for 3:15 (first run) and 3:35 for the second run. Considering 15 seconds between pouring, putting flasks in place, doing things without stress, that means setting the stopwatch at 3:00 for the first run and 3:20 for the second run. I will start the stopwatch when the chemical hits the film. I will begin pouring with the lift when the stopwatch yells.

    I am going to use developer 2 times, and bleach and fix 4 times. That would allow not to stretch the developer too much, and not to waste bleach (which is expensive I gather) and fix. That means I cannot escape buying new flasks for C-41, that's appropriate in any case after all.

    I am going to insert an acidic stop bath between colour development and bleach, in order to reduce bleach contamination for reuse. I still have to understand the difference between citric acid baths and acetic acid bath. I suppose acetic acid is fine and I can buy it at the chemist's, or at the ironmonger's. I see the majority of stop baths around seem to be based on citric acid, though, and wonder why.

    The Rollei / compard kit arrived today. Even though it was delivered by UPS (normal couriers drive normally, normal UPS couriers seem to drive like criminals ) it seems to be intact. The various flasks were cleverly bound together with PVC film so that they would not bump against each other in the pack.

    The kit is not properly speaking a 5-litre kit. Only the first developer is enough to make 5 litres of final solution. Re-use of other components is "mandatory" if one wants to process the declared 100 films.

    The bleach is declared as 980 ml, it is to be diluted 7 + 18 to make 3.5 litres of final solution.

    The fixer is 700ml concentrated, which is to be diluted 1 + 4 to make 3.5 litres of final solution.

    The stabilizer is declared as 150ml concentrated (I'm not sure as is one half of a 250ml flask, we'll see) and is to be diluted 1 + 19 to make 3 litres of final solution.

    That means one HAS to have separate dedicated flasks for C-41 bleach and C-41 fix, besides the glass container for the stabilizer.

    That's not very practical for two-shots use as you might process 2 rolls (1 + 1 using the same 140ml) and three weeks later want to process instead 4 rolls (2 + 2 using the same 240ml) but you have to make some calculation and mix new bleach and fix to add to the old baths, then you have baths which have been used around 3 times on average, then the next time I want to make a 1+1 again and I must set some of this bleach apart, so I have 140 which after treatment have been used 5 times (to discard) and 100ml which have been used 3 (and will be used 5 times after the next 1 + 1, and I'll to prepare only 40ml), that requires a bit of attention.

    I'll probably set in bronze that I only use the 1510 with C-41 and that will make it easy: Prepare 140ml every 1+1, and prepare bleach and fix every other 1+1.

    With a Jobo 1510, supposing one wants to use the developer 2 times and bleach and fix 4 times, and stabilizer around 6 times, one has:

    70 rolls of developer (plus some change);
    100 rolls of bleach;
    100 rolls of fixer;
    around 128 rolls of stabilizer;

    I'm a bit worried about demineralized water. Last time I went and take some from an open container I found some green filaments in it (algae I presume) and tossed it all. I opened another container, a 5 litre one, but now I cannot swear on the forms of life inside it. Should I use a newly-opened container of demineralized water for each preparation? Should I just "boil" it (or heat it up in the microwave oven?).

    Fabrizio
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

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