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  1. #1

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    Alternative process and CD4?

    Hi everybody

    After reading many post in this great forum it tried C41 at home with very good results. Now I am thinking about a more "artistic" approach:

    Why using for home developing only the C41 and not something else?

    As I understood, the only "Color Developer" in that chemistry is CD4.

    There 2-Bath solutions around: Bath A CD4 and Bath B the silver developer.

    How CD4 is working? Wy not do in bath A the developing and the dye forming in bath B? What does the Starter do?

    Any combination with other chemicals to boost up the dye forming with CD4? How can I get negatives that are (in combination with bleach bypass) like painted?

    Any suggestions for experiments?

    regards

    Color Photographer

  2. #2
    Athiril's Avatar
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    It's very difficult to tell what you are on about.

    It seems you're referring to a split-bath developer. In which case, Bath A is acidic or at least low (compared to C-41 developer) pH so no to little development takes place, but the film soaks up the developing agent, Bath B contains the alkali to raise the pH so the developer (CD-4) can work and develop the image.

    Boost dye forming with CD-4? Well after you develop in C-41 or your CD-4 based developer, if you do a stop bath, and put it back in C-41 or your CD-4 developer with some Hydrogen Peroxide (the references on APUG I have read are 10-40mL/litre of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide) is supposed to build up more dye relative to the negative picture formed. You can then rinse/wash afterwards well, and carry out your bleach and fix.

    You could also try adding citrazinic acid to your developer I suppose, that is supposed to increase saturation, but I have yet to get my hands on some to even try it.


    Bleach bypass increases overall density and lows apparent saturation. So I don't know why you want to increase dye and bleach bypass, not sure what you mean by painted either.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiril View Post
    Boost dye forming with CD-4? Well after you develop in C-41 or your CD-4 based developer, if you do a stop bath, and put it back in C-41 or your CD-4 developer with some Hydrogen Peroxide
    .
    Thanks. Did you mean a complete development with bleach and fix before the second development in C41 with added Hydrogen Peroxide?

    So citrazinic acid and/or hydrogen peroxide for increased saturation.
    How about alcohol?

  4. #4
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiril View Post
    It's very difficult to tell what you are on about..... not sure what you mean by painted either.
    Cleary the OP is excited about any potential modification to the color developing process to alter the outcome in some way.

    By painting, I'm sure he's not referring to the photo-realist movement... he wants unique colors, unrealistic tonalities; deviations from the typical rendering of photography.
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  5. #5
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Photographer View Post
    Thanks. Did you mean a complete development with bleach and fix before the second development in C41 with added Hydrogen Peroxide?

    So citrazinic acid and/or hydrogen peroxide for increased saturation.
    How about alcohol?
    Alcohol will only make your images fuzzier. :P


    I mean. Developer. Stop. Fix. ie; a bleach bypass. H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) needs to have silver present to work in this manner.. at least from my understanding with discussions with Photo Engineer. After the last fix, you wash well, put developer in. Which does nothing by itself, but with added H2O2 will do something (add dye).

    Then you get rid of the silver neg left, by washing after that, bleaching, fixing, and then washing and doing your final rinse etc as normal.

    You could also just add H2O2 to your dev in the first place and carry on as normal with less steps. H2O2 makes your dev one shot.

    I've read several places citrazinic acid increases saturation, it's used in E-6 colour developers, or at least home brew ones. I dont know what effect it would have.

    But I am reminded to find out now, I've been meaning to get my hands on some to try.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by holmburgers View Post
    Cleary the OP is excited about any potential modification to the color developing process to alter the outcome in some way.

    By painting, I'm sure he's not referring to the photo-realist movement... he wants unique colors, unrealistic tonalities; deviations from the typical rendering of photography.
    exactly

  7. #7
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Photographer View Post
    exactly
    Well dramatic differences can be made by filters.


    Eg; even just a polariser.

    Recently (last sunday) I went out to take photos with Ektar. Here is a shot non-polarised vs polarised.

    non-polarised:

    Stream #4 by athiril, on Flickr

    polarised:

    Stream #3 by athiril, on Flickr



    If you're wanting to get into surreal photography with colour film... other then modifying developer by trial and error, then filters, and post-production (dodging, burning, masking etc - which you can do digitally or with optical printing on an enlarger). There are some filters which can be very surreal, such as a blue-yellow polariser.

    Also too bad Kodak EIR is not around still.. though with a landscape you could do trichomy/three colour separation with IR, red and green and combine them for an EIR palette. (though any IR film with a red filter might be too similar to IR filtering itself, so you may want to switch backs to a pan film for the red shot at least).


    Here is a blue-yellow polariser comparison (someone else's and digital, but it serves the purpose to demonstrate).

    beek_blue by Michael Stoop, on Flickr


    beek_yellow by Michael Stoop, on Flickr
    Last edited by Athiril; 09-01-2011 at 11:17 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #8

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    Sure filters or the opposite: old uncoated lenses can provide much.

    A second idea is maybe after the dev and fix, a bath in an h2o2 solution without CD4. Then followed by a bath in one shot CD4.

    The h2o2 will react with the silver but also exhausting the CD4 by oxidation.
    Does anybody know what the C41 Starter does?

    Maybe Photo Engineer can provide more information.
    Last edited by Color Photographer; 09-01-2011 at 11:41 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #9
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    The best reaction with CD4 and peroxide is achieved by using the peroxide in the color developer. The best process for overall dye density increase is as follows:

    1. Color develop
    2. Stop
    3. Fix
    4. Good wash
    5. Rehal bleach (Ferricyanide and Bromide)
    6. Clearing bath of sulfite in water
    7. Wash.

    Turn on the lights and go to step #1 and repeat until desired density is achieved (usually 3 passes)

    Then:

    8. Bleach in C41 bleach
    9. Wash
    10. Fix
    11. Wash
    12. Stabilizer or final rinse

    PE

  10. #10

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    Thanks Photo Engineer

    What about the C41 Starter and the amount of it?

    For a home brew Color Developer based on CD4 and BW Developer
    (for sharp edges like BW in Rodinal) what would you suggest?

    Any other components than hydrogen peroxide that I can try?

    Only as suggestion to start some experiments.

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