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  1. #11

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    Archival qualities of RA-4 process

    if I use Kodak endura paper, which paper chemicals doe I use and which negative film to photograph with?
    If I use Fuji chrystal archive paper, which paper chemicals and which negative film should I use?
    I want to get the best out of film, paper and chemicals.
    thanks.

  2. #12
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Sure start with an easy technical question then ask what the meaning of life is.

    First the easy part, the RA-4 process is standard. These chemicals will work for any brand of paper.

    http://www.adorama.com/KKRADRRT.html
    http://www.adorama.com/KKRABFR10L.html

    Any C-41 (color print) film will work with either paper.

    Now to your "meaning of life question".

    "Best" is a purely subjective judgement.

    I have yet to find a Fuji or Kodak C-41 film that can't do a real keeper print.

    The situation and my intent typically drives my choices.

    My favorite subjects are typically people and or things of man and I'm not into super-saturated "tourist trap color" so standard contrast/normal color films suit me just fine.

    I also find that many times I enjoy the limits of detail that a 400 or an 800 speed 35mm film blown up to 11x14 gives; other times I want the detail and smoother tones available from larger formats and or slower film.

    Sometimes I want the sharpness of my RB67's 90mm lens or my Nikon's 105 2.5 but many times the dreaminess of my Holga is just exactly what I want.

    Best for me is actually a very loose and often serendipitous definition. Like my friends, I like my prints to have some personality. Some of my friends are very sharp and smooth, others are a bit rough.

    The choice of film, format, and lens is very much like choosing who you might like hanging out with this weekend.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  3. #13
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Back to the 200 year statement for longevity of RA4 papers.

    For those who believe this to be a fact, I have a very large tower for sale here in Toronto, its situated right beside the Rogers Center and I am selling it cheap, I will negotiate on the price and
    it is a cash only deal , with no refunds.

  4. #14
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    Wow, I wonder how much Gurskys 4.3 million print will be worth in 200 years, considering he sold it for something in the tens of thousands a few years ago.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Back to the 200 year statement for longevity of RA4 papers.

    For those who believe this to be a fact, I have a very large tower for sale here in Toronto, its situated right beside the Rogers Center and I am selling it cheap, I will negotiate on the price and
    it is a cash only deal , with no refunds.
    Try here: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe...4042/E4042.pdf

    and here: http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/...WhitePaper.pdf

    and also in the textbook for the ICIS short course on image stability. I highly recommend it Bob.

    I'd love to take you up on your deal, but somehow I think that what I am saying is more reliable than what you have said, unless I have to discount all of the articles I have read and tests I have run. Oh, BTW, there are 2 lengthy articles on this in the proceedings of the last two ICIS meetings (2006 and 2002). One is by Fuji and the other by EK. I also suggest that you look at the Wilhelm site.

    PE

  6. #16
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    Sorry Ron , I respect your opinion, but the only reliable issue is that over the last 35 years I have been printing Colour C prints, and very much doubt the claims you are making as I am in a commercial climate and have made in the hundred of thousand colour images on C print material and still do today, and sadly wish what you say to be true , there is a reason why I am moving to pure pigment prints.
    I have met Whihelm, I have his book sitting buy me right as I type and have read it cover to cover, and I am amazed that a 200 year permanance claim for colour C prints is even being put forth.
    I do not need an education by you btw , maybe you should go out and ask a few lab owners about this topic or even art photographers working long term with this material.
    Bob

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Try here: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe...4042/E4042.pdf

    and here: http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/...WhitePaper.pdf

    and also in the textbook for the ICIS short course on image stability. I highly recommend it Bob.

    I'd love to take you up on your deal, but somehow I think that what I am saying is more reliable than what you have said, unless I have to discount all of the articles I have read and tests I have run. Oh, BTW, there are 2 lengthy articles on this in the proceedings of the last two ICIS meetings (2006 and 2002). One is by Fuji and the other by EK. I also suggest that you look at the Wilhelm site.

    PE

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Back to the 200 year statement for longevity of RA4 papers.

    For those who believe this to be a fact, I have a very large tower for sale here in Toronto, its situated right beside the Rogers Center and I am selling it cheap, I will negotiate on the price and
    it is a cash only deal , with no refunds.
    Uh, you did mean to say, "Sky Dome", right?

  8. #18
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Yes one of those big empty buildings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Plate Voltage View Post
    Uh, you did mean to say, "Sky Dome", right?

  9. #19
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    Bob;

    And over those 35 years color papers were improved dramatically so a 35 year old print will not be the same in image stability as a present day CA or Endura print. Both of these products are less than 35 years old, in fact they are less than 15 years old. In between, in the Kodak line up was the Supra I, II and III which were not up to the image stability of the current Endura, and CA underwent a major change in about 2006.

    I know Henry Wilhelm too, and I met him in Washington at his first talk to the SPSE. His data was both right and wrong at that time because the actual data depends on test condition. I last spent about 4 hours with him in 2006 when we talked about - gee, dye stability, and we toured the RIT Image Permanence Institute. Then I left to take the ICIS short course on image stability.

    At the present time, Endura stored and displayed in a museum at about 100 fc - 150 fc will, according to reports last for up to 200 years. This can only be estimated by accelerated tests though. We will know when we get there, right?

    PE

  10. #20
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    Ron

    I can only hope you are right about the new materials, but for the record we never have sold shows of colour c print or inkjet work with that type of life expectations to our clients since the mid 90's.
    Currently Wilhelm is giving c print a very poor rating, my understanding he is giving inkjet a better rating, and pure pigments are still the king, whether they are tri colour carbon or gum, where there are now many workers producing images.

    I personally know about three major colour portrait / wedding photographers who's whole careers are in question, due to colour image fading, these three are in litigation with carriage trade customers. I am not calling you up on the carpet on this, you have your rightful opinion, and I have mine. Your background is well documented here and I respect your knowledge but I have to take a completely different stance here.

    The Archives of Canada were asking one of these photographers to provide a historical background of their work and would not accept his colour prints, I was asked to make silver gelatin fibre prints by black white conversion, this would have been a wonderful assignment, unfortunately not only were most of the prints faded and not acceptable by the archive, the colour negative were also damaged to a point that I could not rescue them , I grudgingly turned away a very lovely assignment. I believe one of my competition did inkjet black and white prints for him.
    I do not think I am the only one that can point out this problem, and to say the new material is light years ahead of the old material, is news to me and my counterparts in the colour print industry in Canada and internationally.
    I got into the lab business over this very issue, I started out in a portrait/wedding business and could have taken over the shop, I refused due to all the colour prints coming back as cyan replicas so this issue is dear to me and I hopefully with silver gelatin prints and alt prints can leave behind some legacy of my little time on earth, I really doubt they will be current RA4 prints, I wish it was so. My first lab was a Black and White lab only, then we brought in Cibachrome, then we purchased a Lambda with the inkling of being able at some day to make digital separation negatives and make pure pigment prints. That day is here now and all R&D is in this area for us.

    Bob



    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Bob;

    And over those 35 years color papers were improved dramatically so a 35 year old print will not be the same in image stability as a present day CA or Endura print. Both of these products are less than 35 years old, in fact they are less than 15 years old. In between, in the Kodak line up was the Supra I, II and III which were not up to the image stability of the current Endura, and CA underwent a major change in about 2006.

    I know Henry Wilhelm too, and I met him in Washington at his first talk to the SPSE. His data was both right and wrong at that time because the actual data depends on test condition. I last spent about 4 hours with him in 2006 when we talked about - gee, dye stability, and we toured the RIT Image Permanence Institute. Then I left to take the ICIS short course on image stability.

    At the present time, Endura stored and displayed in a museum at about 100 fc - 150 fc will, according to reports last for up to 200 years. This can only be estimated by accelerated tests though. We will know when we get there, right?

    PE

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