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  1. #41

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    Unless we are talking about journalistic, forensic, scientific, or some specific fields where fidelity is the most important thing, photography is an art. It's all about personal expression. How can there be right and wrong? I do my best to capture the image the best way I can but if it requires cropping, dodging and burning, or any other dark room manipulations to express my vision, that's my vision and expression.

    I think, the very premise of this proposal is wrong.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by pekelnik View Post
    Which leads to a question. Do people that oppose dodging and burning consider
    things like polarizers, color filters and GND filters kosher?
    Just my opinion of course, but I think GNDs are absolutely necessary for some scenes. At the same time, just as is the case with d&b, there are plenty of examples of misused / overused GNDs.

    If you can look at an image and tell right away that there's been heavy d&b or GND, then chances are that it wasn't done properly. Its a question of what you want the viewer to notice first: the image for itself... or the tools and effects that were used to create it. That's all I'm saying.

    And again, I am being semi-serious when I say that if a photogram is acceptable then d&b must be too I don't think this is about what is acceptable or kosher or the highest art. It's about how well it's done. I personally favor doing as much in camera as possible and will typically not take a shot if I don't see pretty much exactly what I am after. That's just me.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  3. #43

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    As long as the technique is "transparent" (an often quoted expression), do whatever it takes to achieve the original visualization.

  4. #44
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    I have obviously upset a few people with this thread and I do apologise. I should consider other viewpoints more carefully before I type. I also understand the points made by master printers and others about personal creative printing. I was asked to post some prints that I have not dodged or burned, but that would probably be 90% or more of my output. I very seldom dodge or burn and if I do it is usually quite minimal, but then I am not a master printer or artistic creator in the darkroom. I know this sounds strange to some, but even if I am creating a Van Dyke or Salt print, or something in the darkroom that may require a personal approach to process chemistry and application, I am not precious about the print. If it doesn’t work to my satisfaction, I can always destroy it and make another one.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  5. #45
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    Destroying prints is nothing special. I must chuck-out 99% of the crap that I turn out.

  6. #46
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    Clive I am in the process of matting and framing a gorgeous print from you, it's a gem. Worth every penny and then some! I wouldn't dodge or burn a thing But thanks for what you just said.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithwms View Post
    Clive I am in the process of matting and framing a gorgeous print from you, it's a gem. Worth every penny and then some! I wouldn't dodge or burn a thing But thanks for what you just said.
    Keith, thanks for that and the picture you have was definitely not dodged or burned. It was taken using a Leica M2 with a 1.4 Summilux at about 1/125 on f8. I took about 7 shots with no changes in exposure, just slight changes in composition. The one you have was the best of the bunch. For what it’s worth I am such a purist nutcase, I don’t even like to use a UV filter on the lens, even though it has virtually no effect on light transmission.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    I have never made a print in my entire career that was not dodged or burned , it is a necessity IMO.
    I agree with Bob. In fact one can start at the basics by looking at the light falloff of almost any enlarging lens and go from there. Those who indicate they never dodge or burn are printing the corners lighter than they are supposed to be. So you are the ones altering the image.


  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    I have obviously upset a few people with this thread and I do apologise. I should consider other viewpoints more carefully before I type. I also understand the points made by master printers and others about personal creative printing. I was asked to post some prints that I have not dodged or burned, but that would probably be 90% or more of my output. I very seldom dodge or burn and if I do it is usually quite minimal, but then I am not a master printer or artistic creator in the darkroom. I know this sounds strange to some, but even if I am creating a Van Dyke or Salt print, or something in the darkroom that may require a personal approach to process chemistry and application, I am not precious about the print. If it doesn’t work to my satisfaction, I can always destroy it and make another one.
    Cliveh,

    It is good to have a well defined way of doing things, as you seem to.

    I think the point that most of us we're trying to make is simply that there isn't "one right way": we each have different tools and needs; we each have different personalities and preferences and skills.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ic-racer View Post
    In fact one can start at the basics by looking at the light falloff of almost any enlarging lens and go from there. Those who indicate they never dodge or burn are printing the corners lighter than they are supposed to be. So you are the ones altering the image.[/IMG]
    I have no problem starting with the basics. But if we're going to do that, then let's go all the way! Your [taking] lens also has falloff, which leads to underexposure toward the periphery of the film
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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