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  1. #11
    Flotsam's Avatar
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    My personal rule is that the only things that should be rendered paper-white are speculars and light sources. Broad highlights like Snow and Skies should have at least a minimal tone to them but even these can flow into border or matt.

    I agree with Oriecat that a Black line separating the image from the border, or matt, or mount keeps the print from flowing into its surroundings. I like to use a Black core matt board for this purpose.
    That is called grain. It is supposed to be there.
    =Neal W.=

  2. #12
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    Thanks all!
    Just wanted a little feedback. As I am not (yet) matting my prints borders are seen. In the future, who knows?
    I do prefer my skies (or snow) that cover large areas to have at least a little tone (but thats me).
    I'd try Oriecat's suggestion but my neg carrier isn't full frame. May have to remedy that one day. No hurry though.
    And Mr.Barker, good humour as usual! I think I will do full black borders on all my prints next class. Just to see what he says...

  3. #13
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity, how des your instructor feel about the other end - blacks?. Is it necessary, as well, to have *no* completely black area, with all blacks no more than very dark gray, with *some* detail?
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  4. #14
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    If I remember correctly he said "not all prints will have true white or true black. Most will but not all". (the ones I have seen without black look like they have contrast issues , but thats me)"BUT, black MUST be black, not really dark gray".
    He is of the opinion that prints with white going into the border making the edge of said border "disappear" then it needs to be burned in just enough to make the edge. Perhaps he is this way as we will not be matting anything in this class, so all prints are judged/marked "as is".
    Last edited by rogueish; 11-26-2004 at 01:35 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: <sigh>spelling again

  5. #15
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oriecat
    Just print them all full frame with the black edge around it.
    I agree -- I Print everything with the verification border

    I also agree that wihin the classroom the teach is correct and out side that you are the judge of right or wrong.

    *

  6. #16
    Ole
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    I have lost my "fear" of paper white and totally black after getting a spotmeter. Since many of the scenes I shoot have SBR from 10 to 14, the prints simply look more "right" when printed with white highlights and black blacks! Even looking at the scene it is very difficult to see detail in glaring white and pitch black shadows, so why shouldn't I print it that way?
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  7. #17
    Max Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcallow
    I agree -- I Print everything with the verification border

    I also agree that wihin the classroom the teach is correct and out side that you are the judge of right or wrong.
    mrcallow, please excuse a stupid question, but what is a 'verification border'?

    Thank you,

    Kent
    Max Power, he's the man who's name you'd love to touch! But you mustn't touch! His name sounds good in your ear, but when you say it, you mustn't fear! 'Cause his name can be said by anyone!

  8. #18
    rbarker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power
    . . . what is a 'verification border'?
    I can't speak for mrcallow, but I'd assume the term originated with SCOFF (the School of Full Framers), who like to file the aperture on their film carriers to show some of the edge of the film - as "verification" that the image is full frame.
    [COLOR=SlateGray]"You can't depend on your eyes if your imagination is out of focus." -Mark Twain[/COLOR]

    Ralph Barker
    Rio Rancho, NM

  9. #19
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarker
    I can't speak for mrcallow, but I'd assume the term originated with SCOFF (the School of Full Framers), who like to file the aperture on their film carriers to show some of the edge of the film - as "verification" that the image is full frame.
    Rbaker got it right, although I have not heard of SCOFF. There are a variety of reasons for printing some of the mask. One is to show the viewer that they are looking at all of what you saw in the view finder when you shot it.

    It also is a make no excuse way of shooting. If you print with the verification border you truly have to take responsibility for every square mm of the frame. If you print in colour than your neg has to be pretty close to perfectly exposed otherwise you will get 'bleed' from the Dmin on overexposed film and dingy blacks from under exposed film.

    I like to think of it as the antithesis of digital (there is no 'we'll remove the warts with PS or we'll crop that out if traditional') as well as another way to further integrate the entire process.

    *

  10. #20
    Flotsam's Avatar
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    I started out shooting slides and perhaps because of that, when I moved to B&W, I took great pains to compose to the format that I was shooting. Since then I've come to the conclusion that not everything works well within an arbitrary frame aspect, and now I compose to the subject rather than the camera. If I lose a little negative to improve the composition, so be it. I just can't get away with buying pre-cut matts anymore.
    That is called grain. It is supposed to be there.
    =Neal W.=

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