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  1. #31
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    There lies the difference of opinion . My experience tells me that Dektol will not work... you may be able to get somewhat basic results, but when I changed to the Metol only developer... BAMMM.. NOW WERE TALKIN.

    Its kind of like lith printing... one can get basic results with lets say Kodak A B but always a bit weak... change to Champion AB and ...BAMMM.. NOW WERE TALKIN.

    I strongly advise Tkamiya to read the paper by Mr Jolly and follow it to a tee... one of the most wonderful accurate descriptions on how to do this process I have seen.
    I first started this path back in 2002 and 10 years later when I re read his paper its amazing how well he described what I have learned in the darkroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    Tkamiya: Why don't you try it the simple way first and proceed from there. I'm not sure why you'd have to use a Metol-only developer, other than if you wanted development to proceed more slowly or wanted a different image color or lower contrast. Just use your standard Dektol (Metol-Hydroquinone) or Warmtone or whatever else you have and flash 3/4 of the way through as PE suggested. I'll check a book later but I don't recall there being any special requirements with respect to developers etc. to get this to work. I'm not saying there wouldn't be differences with different developers, papers and techniques, but why not just try it using the materials you have and see what happens. Experiment a little, and then go from there into the more involved ways of doing this, such as those Bob is describing. There are likely lots of different ways of getting Sabattier effects, with all sorts of degrees, nuances and subtelties.

  2. #32
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Aw common Ron , don't take your bats away we just got started.


    Could you please explain technically how Potassium Bromide will change the grain structure therefore causing the post flash tones to go a different colour.. I would give it a go but I am just a lowly printer and do not want to talk scientific nonsense.

    PE is right if you use the same dev for both baths there will not be a tone change and I only use two baths to inflict silver clumping radicalization tone effects. (post development, fix and wash) using bleach sepia , gold and selenium components to tone the print.

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Guys;

    If you use the same developer for pre and post flash, then the image tone is the same. If you use 2 developers, the image tone is different depending on what developer you use. Now, for a beginner, it is best to start simple, but for an advanced user, then more complex methods is useful.

    If you wish to leave your conversation, please let me know as this is otherwise a waste of my time.

    PE

  3. #33
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Hang a point source light above your dev area if you end up really enjoy this process.. makes for easier work.
    Quote Originally Posted by tkamiya View Post
    I'll just setup so that I can use my second enlarger as "flasher" then. (don't worry, I'm fully aware of water-electricity thing)

  4. #34

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    OK then, I'll hang a light above my dev tray. Easy enough to do.... I'll even have an electrician do it. (me)
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  5. #35
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Ok now I got you ... my lab requires rewiring .. I want you to come here and do it for all the advice I am imparting to you.. Probably two days work, I will supply the material and food.


    google point light source... get a old step version,, modify it to just do single exposure ,, they are made to move with filters in place , and hang...
    easy peasy.

    I am attaching a couple of images from my last show here in Toronto ... These images are Sabatier images done by flashing the 8x10 negative... my early work was all print flashing.
    These prints are murals on Art 300 duo toned with Bleach Sepia and a bit of strong Selenium.

    Quote Originally Posted by tkamiya View Post
    OK then, I'll hang a light above my dev tray. Easy enough to do.... I'll even have an electrician do it. (me)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ElevatorGallery_0066.jpg   Bones.jpg   Land Camera.jpg  

  6. #36
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Bob;

    The form of the developed silver image is changed by a number of things, and these changes impart changes in tone. Therefore, you can use 2 developers to get a toned effect in either the first or second image.

    As for leaving the conversation, I will be happy to do so if my use of Sabattier is distracting even though accurate. I don't wish to subtract from anything especially your most excellent photos using the Sabattier effect as shown above.

    PE

  7. #37
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I am happy to call my prints Sabattier , though much harder to roll off the tonque than solarization.

    Is Potassium Bromide not a restrainer and as such the clumping of the grains in the second developer different than those of the first non Pot Bromide developer, which causes a different tone in each chemical toning bath I use??

    I have noticed almost four or more distinct tones beyond the basic print colour when doing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Bob;

    The form of the developed silver image is changed by a number of things, and these changes impart changes in tone. Therefore, you can use 2 developers to get a toned effect in either the first or second image.

    As for leaving the conversation, I will be happy to do so if my use of Sabattier is distracting even though accurate. I don't wish to subtract from anything especially your most excellent photos using the Sabattier effect as shown above.

    PE

  8. #38
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    This attachment is a Print Sabattier with Potassium Bromide as the second dev. It is Bleach Sepia , Selenium.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Wheel 1 catalogue.jpg  

  9. #39

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    OK, raw chems are now ordered.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  10. #40
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Gang up on the Sodium Sulphite as you can use it for hypo clear as well.
    If you use the two dev method gang up on the Potassium Bromide as you can use it for your Bleach Sepia toning that you
    are now going to be doing from scratch.


    Quote Originally Posted by tkamiya View Post
    OK, raw chems are now ordered.

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