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  1. #11
    Overkill-F2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worker 11811 View Post
    I assume that this is what Terry is getting at. No?
    .
    I was thinking if you covered one edge of the neg carrier and one of the light streaks dissappeared, then we would get an idea of where they are coming from.
    ...Terry

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overkill-F2 View Post
    I have filed the edges of my carriers to an angle around 45 degrees and painted them black to stop this very thing.
    The exact same thing is done in cinema projectors. You bevel the edge of your aperture plate at about 45ļ.
    Cinema projector aperture plates are hard brass so, as long as they are smooth, you don't need to worry about stray reflections. Beveling is done, mainly, to make the edges of the image appear cleaner.
    Randy S.

    In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni.

    -----

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/randystankey/

  3. #13

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    I appreciate all the help and suggestions. I spent a lot of time tonight investigating the problem without luck. I am still pulling my hair out to solve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    If you put black paper in the negative carrier and completely cover the opening for film. Do the lines go away as the negative carrier opening is blocked out?
    I covered the opening in the negative carrier with black paper and checked. All the stray edges disappeared. It was pitch black on baseboard.
    Also, the intensity of the stray lines increase and decrease as I open and close the aperture on the lens. Both of these tell me that these stray lines are definitely coming through the lens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    If the carrier is a full-frame carrier (like a filed carrier would be), then around the negative will be four (or eight) bright lines that can reflect around.
    I am using standard carriers for 120 films. The window openings are slightly smaller than the actual film frames. The rim of the window is not filed.

    Here are a couple of pictures showing the projected image fom a 6x6 negative and stray lights. I shot these in darkroom with my DSLR.

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    Here are some pictures I took of my enlarger.

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    I also took the Dichroic chamber off and took some closeup shots.

    A couple of views of the bottom of the Dichroic chamber:

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    A few views from the top of the negative stage (without the Dichroic chamber):

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  4. #14

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    Seems to me that it is coming from the grey edge of the frame below the negative carrier (last few pictures). Flock or paint that edge and it should take care of the problem.

  5. #15

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    I got to thinking about the problem and that jarred my memory. I do recall (vaguely) a discussion about the bright bands you observed. I believe it involved an LPL enlarger. The conclusion—which seemed to make sense—was that the negative carrier is reflecting light from the 4 edges of the film aperture of the carrier into the bright bands that you see projected onto the baseboard.

    But why haven’t I ever observed this on my enlargers? The film apertures on my carriers are similar.

    I looked at the images you sent.

    http://kaushix.com/album/index.php?/category/18

    What they show contradicts the above idea. When you projected a 6 x 4.5cm image you got the same bright bands arranged in the SAME SIZE SQUARE as was the case with the 6 x 6cm projection. Clearly, the edges of the film aperture in the negative carrier are not the cause because they are of obviously different aspect ratio (3:2 vs 1:1).

    I notice that the LPL uses a thick black piece with a handle below the film holding plates (photos 9 and 10). I think that this plays a role in the problem on this LPL enlarger because it provides greater that usual distance from the negative to the opening in the negative stage. This makes it easier for the light to illuminate the edges.

    Photos 2 and 4 show the light colored aluminum opening in the negative stage. Notice that the opening is SQUARE and that the vertical edges are relatively reflective. The size relation between the film aperture in the carriers and the opening in the film stage is about the same as the relation as between the projected image though the carriers and the bright bands. (Lightbulb comes on).

    Here is what I think is happening. The light that passes through the back-illuminated negative radiates in every direction from the bottom surface. Some of it hits the 4 vertical sides of the square opening in the negative stage.

    The edges are “lit up” and are slightly within the image pickup circle of the lens at the magnification that you’re using. Recall that the bands disappear at the corners. That’s because the image pickup circle is too small to include the corners.

    The lens sees these bright bands and does what all good lenses do. It projects them faithfully onto the baseboard. I think this is the most likely explanation of your observation.

    You said

    But I did switch it to a Nikon 50mm lens. It causes vignetting on the 6x4.5 and 6x6 negative but I didn't see the lines of light leak.
    That makes sense. The 50mm lens has a smaller diameter pickup circle, so it doesn’t see the bright reflections from the edges of the opening in the negative stage.

    You can cover the edges of the opening in the negative stage with black tape to test the idea. If you cover them with black tape and the bright bands disappear, then you have positively found the problem and can easily devise a permanent fix.

    The important things to realize are: there is nothing wrong with your enlarger or lens.

    The projected bands, while annoying, are of modest intensity and are well outside of the image area. They won’t affect the enlargement quality and I don’ think they will affect the contrast of the main image.

  6. #16
    ic-racer's Avatar
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    http://kaushix.com/album/picture.php?/360/category/18
    Just looks like the projection of the inside of the bellows. I'd just ignore it and mask it out with the easel.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian C View Post
    Here is what I think is happening. The light that passes through the back-illuminated negative radiates in every direction from the bottom surface. Some of it hits the 4 vertical sides of the square opening in the negative stage.

    The edges are ďlit upĒ and are slightly within the image pickup circle of the lens at the magnification that youíre using. Recall that the bands disappear at the corners. Thatís because the image pickup circle is too small to include the corners.

    The lens sees these bright bands and does what all good lenses do. It projects them faithfully onto the baseboard. I think this is the most likely explanation of your observation.

    You can cover the edges of the opening in the negative stage with black tape to test the idea. If you cover them with black tape and the bright bands disappear, then you have positively found the problem and can easily devise a permanent fix.

    The important things to realize are: there is nothing wrong with your enlarger or lens.

    The projected bands, while annoying, are of modest intensity and are well outside of the image area. They wonít affect the enlargement quality and I doní think they will affect the contrast of the main image.
    Ian, Hats off to you for doing the thorough analysis. This makes total sense and I was getting suspicious of this late last night as well. I will try putting black tape around the perimeter of the opening in the negative stage just above the bellows and see if I can get rid of the stray light.

    Am I missing something in the negative stage? How come others with LPL 6700 doesn't experience this?

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by ic-racer View Post
    http://kaushix.com/album/picture.php?/360/category/18
    Just looks like the projection of the inside of the bellows. I'd just ignore it and mask it out with the easel.
    You are correct, the reflections of the bellows are showing up when the negative holder is not in place. I have tried masking the stray lights out, but I have not been happy with the not-so-good Dmax I am getting with this enlarger because of the stray lights bouncing on to the paper. My prints from a Leica Focomat V35 are much contrastier in comparison. This is what led me to do the investigation.

  9. #19

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    As I pointed out, I have heard of this several years ago. Used with a 50mm lens the problem isnít evident. Other owners might simply ignore it as it wonít affect the prints. Itís just a design idiosyncrasy of no real consequence, possibly annoying, but the prints that result will still be of excellent quality. Most owners probably ignore it.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian C View Post
    As I pointed out, I have heard of this several years ago..
    Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian C View Post
    Used with a 50mm lens the problem isnít evident. Other owners might simply ignore it as it wonít affect the prints. Itís just a design idiosyncrasy of no real consequence, possibly annoying, but the prints that result will still be of excellent quality. Most owners probably ignore it.

    Yes, the prints are still of excellent quality. I am not sure if I am being too anal, but I would prefer to get the best out of enlarging without any loss of Dmax due to stray light leaks. I can imagine that many don't notice or prefer to mask it out. So did I until this puzzling problem to figure out the stray lights took over me. Hopefully I am getting close to nailing it with all of your help and support.

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