Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 68,768   Posts: 1,484,186   Online: 820
      
Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 115
  1. #41
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles & Paris
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,638
    Images
    216
    Dinesh is watching us in silence... he is around, always :-) :-) :-)

    Repeatability is really an issue. If you want to have let say 15 identical prints, the ideal would be to do it the same day on a same batch.
    Because everything, chemical, water, paper, your state of mind, are the same.
    That applies also (even more) with toning.

    If one of the variables change, you get a different print.
    It can be your taste.
    It can be the chemicals. And often, even with an exact same setup, it's impossible to get back the same results. That can be very frustrating.
    I do Lith and repeatability is sometime, very often, an issue. And now with my chromo series I enjoy the non... repeatability !

    But all of this is what makes the beauty of darkroom. You don't press a button like in digisboub.

    A note about Bob Carnie who is almost an Alien from planet darkroom.
    You have 2 Bob.
    The first one is the artist who prints for himself and does whatever he likes.
    The second one is the professional who prints for others.
    There he needs repeatability.
    He also needs to adapt to the different desires and taste from his clients. And that is amazing.
    So in fact there are more than 2 Bob !

  2. #42
    Rick A's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    north central Pa
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,574
    Images
    25
    Mr Kamiya-
    Consistancy starts in the camera. Same film, same method of exposure, same development procedure, etc. Tweak your negatives first, then the printing will become easier, almost to the point of the negatives almost printing themselves. Learn to expose for a single grade of paper and then the real fun of printing begins. Put away your MG paper and buy some grade 2 or 3 bromide paper to figure this out.Print everything on one grade and you will soon learn how to expose correctly. Noone seems to realize the importance of this anymore. The mindset these days is VC will take care of everything -- ROT! I learned to print on grade 2 paper years ago, and tossed many thousands of crappy prints in the trash until I figured out how to correctly expose for my paper. Though I use VC paper these days, I still prefer to print on single grade paper, less variables to contend with.
    Rick A
    Argentum aevum
    BTW: the big kid in my avatar is my hero, my son, who proudly serves us in the Navy. "SALUTE"

  3. #43
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Toronto-Ontario
    Shooter
    Med. Format RF
    Posts
    4,551
    Images
    14
    ****I'm not saying I'm great or anything. On the contrary, when I go into the darkroom to print I always worry that I am not sensitive enough. I know from reading Fred Picker's accounts working with Paul Caponigro that you should toil over prints until the "water looks wet."- from an earlier post from Bill Burk.****

    I think this pretty much sums up a funny chapter and learning curve on what it takes to be a good printer.. My personal experience may be slightly different than Bills.

    I bought every newsletter Fred Picker put out,, back in the old days before APUG his notes were mailed and cherished... Fred at that time was bone crushingly dominant as a teacher of fine art black and white prints as well manufactured all types of products an eventually some pretty nice paper.
    Tkamyia- in the mid 80's I was trying to become a better printer and I was convinced if I got the sample print Fred made which showed snow and water and hang it on my darkroom wall as he suggested I would become better overnight as I would have an example to strive for.

    I dished out the money and waited patiently for the master to make me a print so I could look and learn.. three weeks later a package arrived at my door and low and behold it was the holy grail... I almost ripped the package apart to get my first glimpse..

    OMFG it was the worst piece of shite I have ever seen.. Ok not the worst but the blacks were dead the snow was burned out.. I learned something that day.( I came to the conclusion that I was not so bad at all and just decided to stop striving for a perfect print}
    Don't believe the story's - we can advise you , but you need to make prints and show them, get feedback and absorb the comments and find your style. Becoming a better printer will only happen by making prints and enjoying them.

    If you ever get the chance to go to Louisville , go to Paul Paletti Gallery, Paul has an incredible selection of work from the Adams to Shatz, Izo to Schwab, Ullesman to Weston, basically a who's / who's of great prints. My favorite print by far was a print by Gary Winnograd, and as well Brett Weston print. But within the walls of Paul's Gallery you will see how the different printing styles work with each other and stand alone as great prints. By certain people's standards not all of the work would pass as great prints, but when you see over 100 different well know artists hanging in the same room it makes you feel better because within that group there are prints that may match your style.

    Yesterday a print came in here that was printed by a printer in this city, It was on matt paper and looking at the print I could not see what I could do to improve it. I know I could make the print but what could I improve on.. ( I would need to talk to the photographer and discuss how she/he would want it different.}
    For me a great printer is one who can consistently walk into a darkroom and produce high quality prints for people and not have them reject them at the front counter.

    I appreciate some of the nice comments here about printing, and do indeed dread what Dinesh (who by the way I have one of his prints on my wall at home) will say here. But I know that on this site alone, I won't mention names as I will miss one, but I have seen a lot of their prints and boy are they good. Different styles, different processes and compelling bodies of work.
    I am sure Tkamyia you are a lot better than you are letting on and are trying to shake every ounce of wisdom from us posters here, but remember the Fred Picker story above, as it sure changed my mind.

  4. #44
    K-G
    K-G is offline
    K-G's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Göteborg , Sweden
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by tkamiya View Post
    Bob,

    Right now, I am not thinking too much about efficiency. It's a least of my problem. A box of paper costs $50 or so and these days, you can't do much of anything else with $50. Since this is my hobby time is not money either.

    My goal is to make a print that reflects my thoughts and do so predictably. I'm perfectly willing to spend an entire box of paper for one image or spend a months in darkroom - if I think I was going somewhere and my success doesn't depend on luck. I'm an engineer by trade. In order for me to say "I can do this", the process has to be repeatable and document-able. The skill has to be generic enough that I can apply to "an image" not just that image. I'm far away from that....
    In fact you may be very close. It may be your thoughts that have been messed up ( probably by listening to all digital photographers around you ) and your prints are a perfect reflection of them.
    I'm also engineer from the beginning but has luckily been saved to analog photography. Beeing an engineer helps you to maintain your darkroom equipment, making fairly detailed notes on what you did when the print turned out good and helps you with trouble shooting when the prints don't turn out good next time even though you followed the notes to the point. What you say about a month in the darkroom and ( at least ) one box of printing paper seems to be a good starting point. Just as the pianoplayer has to practice continously, even though he/she has detailed notes, we need to train our eyes to see how the subtle nuances change by exposure and filtration. I think the most important capacity we need to have is the lust and desire to work with our beloved prints. Keep working ! thats what helps.

    Karl-Gustaf
    Karl-Gustaf Hellqvist

    www.heliochroma.com

  5. #45
    MattKing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Delta, British Columbia, Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    11,591
    Images
    59
    tkamiya:

    This will repeat some of what is said above.

    It is not a "fault" that prints vary in their qualities. That is part of what makes them special.

    Don't look for the "perfect" print. Look for the strengths and individual characteristics exhibited by each of several, and learn to appreciate the fact that there are differences.

    To use a familiar analogy, remember that negatives are like the "score" and prints are the "performance". It would be a sad world indeed if all performances were perfect, but the same.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  6. #46

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    4,272
    Quote Originally Posted by tkamiya View Post

    To me, accurately judging the effects of dry-down is not possible.
    An 8x10 FB print dries in about one minute in the microwave. I do that all the time when I'm printing negatives with critical highlight detail. It works very well.

    I'm a little disappointed with the direction this thread is going in. Ok, for some people the process is nice and fluid and they're sure about every move and that's nice. For others, it takes a lot of work and analysis of work prints, to get every detail where they want. And there is nothing wrong with that either - and if you are that kind of detail- oriented person, I have to say I'm not in agreement with the approach of going easier on yourself and feeling like there is something useless going on if you use 25 sheets of paper to make a print. Sorry. It depends on your style, aesthetic preferences, personality and also how regularly you work in the darkroom (things are always going to be more sluggish when you don't print every day - nothing you can do about that).

    I'd also like to point out this can all depend quite heavily on what kind of photographs you are making. If it's a seascape or a grove of trees ok maybe 2 work prints will get you there and you'll be singing and dancing between the trays the entire time. On the other hand, if you're making pictures inside subway tunnels with light fixtures in the frame, and you want detail in all those lights without killing the shadows, you're damn right it might take many work prints, several sessions, flashing, burning, dodging, multiple grades, bleaching, masking and whatever other tool you might need to pull out of the box before you're satisfied. Plenty of great printers have, and still do work that way.

    It isn't about "good" vs "perfect" prints. There are probably no perfect prints, or very few. But I don't like the notion working very hard on a print and using lots of paper necessarily implies one is searching in vain for a perfect print. It is about making the best print you can, or more importantly, the print you want to make, the one you see in your mind's eye. If you have very high standards and are very picky, you probably won't be totally satisfied after 2 work prints, especially if you are not printing on a daily basis. So, you keep going until you get there. Be as hard on yourself as you need to be.

    After all, what's better - making 10 good prints in a month, or one or two you're really happy with?
    Last edited by Michael R 1974; 06-30-2012 at 09:10 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Typo

  7. #47
    brian steinberger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Shooter
    Med. Format RF
    Posts
    2,244
    Blog Entries
    1
    Images
    100
    tkamiya, this happens to me often, usually when I put myself in the darkroom for long periods of time, or night after night after night. It gets draining and seems monotonous. I have worked hard a few nights in a row to make a print, only to not be satisfied with it. But I will keep the prints and I store them away. I have dug up the same prints a month or even a year later and said "OMG this is an awesome print!" I think that maybe staring and working with one image for too long becomes draining. But it's hard for me to move on to another negative if the current negative I'm working on is dust free and already in the carrier and focused.

    Guillaume's point about variables changing between printing sessions is very true. Making a series of prints that have to be absolutely identical should ideally be done in the same session. Things like body heat heating up the air and then the developer just a little bit, or an enlarger bulb losing intensity, or even the age of the paper you're using can have an affect on the prints you're producing, and if you wait days or weeks or more between printing the same negative any of these factors and other may have an affect on your results. I prefer to get the final image in one or two sessions at most. When I get there I make 2 or 3 more identical prints, then if I have time tone them, if not that can be done at a later session.

    Some things to think about before going in the darkroom to print. Contact sheets are absolutely priceless to the printer. I make all my contact sheets at grade 2. Some make them at even lower grade. I also scan all worthy frames and save them on the computer. The frames that have the most potential go into PS and I mess with them. Lighten, darken, dodge, burn, even simulate different tonings. I find this process absolutely priceless to me as well as I can already see how I want my print to look before the negative is even in the carrier. At this point I go back to the contact sheet and stare at it, then stare at the "simulated" final image on the computer screen and I go back and forth predicting exactly how I am going to print the image, what grades I will probably need to use, whether I need to split grade print it or not, and where to dodge and burn and most likely with which grade. And since I already figured out which toning I prefer best in the computer I can predict for the contrast increasing effects of selenium toning, or the need to print slightly darker in the highlights if sepia toning warmtone paper. This is my workflow and I wouldn't have it any other way. I can enjoy the scanned images in the meantime on the computer and after a month or more may decide the image is not worth going into the darkroom with. If I didn't have the ability to scan and play in PS first I'm not sure I'd be as good of a printer as I am.. well maybe, but I wouldn't have a clear vision going into the darkroom, and this could be viewed as being a bad thing or a fun thing. Regardless if you scan or not, you need to focus on your contact sheets and try to visualize which grade or grades you may need and also where you're important highlight and shadows are to begin to make test strips, and where burning and dodging may need to be done. Best you can do is be consistent not only in your printing workflow but also shooting workflow as others have mentioned. If you're feeling overwhelmed at all with the process or feel like you wanna give up it's definatly time to take a step back for a day or more and regather your thoughts.

    Here are a few threads I started which are similar to this one you or others may find interesting:

    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum41/8...ous-wreck.html
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum41/1...ne-prints.html
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum41/7...otographs.html
    Last edited by brian steinberger; 06-30-2012 at 08:22 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #48

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Florida, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    3,812
    So.... who IS Dinesh, again??
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  9. #49
    MattKing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Delta, British Columbia, Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    11,591
    Images
    59
    Quote Originally Posted by tkamiya View Post
    So.... who IS Dinesh, again??
    http://www.apug.org/forums/members/dinesh/

    Bob and Dinesh seem to be close
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  10. #50
    Bill Burk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    2,920
    Images
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    I'm a little disappointed with the direction this thread is going in. Ok, for some people the process is nice and fluid and they're sure about every move and that's nice. For others, it takes a lot of work and analysis of work prints, to get every detail where they want. And there is nothing wrong with that either - and if you are that kind of detail- oriented person, I have to say I'm not in agreement with the approach of going easier on yourself and feeling like there is something useless going on if you use 25 sheets of paper to make a print.
    ...
    After all, what's better - making 10 good prints in a month, or one or two you're really happy with?
    Sorry if I made it sound like it should be easy, or suggested following me down the path to lower standards. It's an idea I have to produce work "not as good as" the best photographers printing Silver Gelatin, because it seems like an idea that fits me.

    tkamiya, I have some negatives that defy printing that I have mentally "condemned" as lessons learned. If I were to pursue printing them again I could easily finish off a pack of paper and still be dissatisfied. Last week I deliberately skipped over printing the ice field. I still haven't made the texture of ice come out the way I want it. Yes it "begs" to be white, but my mind sees the grit. But I do have a river that I printed too light, and it looks like ice. I am going to use that failed print as my reference when I pick up the ice field picture again...


    Found a quote from Ernst Haas 1970... "An artist for me is a man who can build his own vision, his own world, and force others to live with this vision."

Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst 1234567891011 ... LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin