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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by MurrayMinchin
    What blows me away is that by using Radeka's methods as a springboard, how different images might lead you to new discoveries specific to those images needs. His methods and the level of control possible are only limited by the imagination of each photographer's will to pull it off. There's no need for a computer with this stuff, as the control in Christopher Burketts colour work testifies.

    Bobby, you're teasing me here about the visit to Lynn's house! I've always thought it possible (but haven't yet tried it) to eliminate dust and lint in the skies of negatives while printing by making a heiniously dense, sharp positive mask above a piece of Duratrans where the only clear areas were the dust and lint, then they were "burned to an appropriate print value" - was that what he did?

    Really...it's okay to kiss and tell

    Murray
    All that needs to be done is to produce an interpositive of the appropriate density. The density in the mask would offset the missing density of the scratch on the negative. This would be like a limited unsharp mask...it would take a second mask or to ammend the unsharp mask to totally mask (block) the unaffected areas.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    All that needs to be done is to produce an interpositive of the appropriate density. The density in the mask would offset the missing density of the scratch on the negative. This would be like a limited unsharp mask...it would take a second mask or to ammend the unsharp mask to totally mask (block) the unaffected areas.
    Wouldn't it have to be a sharp positive mask above a sheet of Duratrans, with the only clear areas being those you wanted to burn? Wouldn't each area of sky, for example, need a different amount of burn to blend with that areas surrounding density?

    Have you done this?

    Murray
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    All that needs to be done is to produce an interpositive of the appropriate density. The density in the mask would offset the missing density of the scratch on the negative.
    But...but...but......

    Because the dust or lint on the original negative has no density and is in effect just film base plus fog, wouldn't you have to burn each area appropriately..?

    Murray
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    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

  4. #14

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    Murray: Give Lynn a call to get the details. He said it takes 3 masks. He just discovered it. I didn't get the particulars as I was there visiting a friend that was taking his workshop. I plan to call soon and will get the details. It really does work though. Amazing!

  5. #15
    MurrayMinchin's Avatar
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    Three? I'll be stewing over this one for days!

    Me (being the simpleton that I am) would burn each pesky piece of lint while Lynn would figure out an eloquent way to do it in one shot, in one mask. I should really go visit that fellow...

    Murray
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

  6. #16
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    I worked in a portrait studio 1976 where the owner had been dye dodging for over 25 years, he used red coccine*sp* powder and dye on his 4x5 negatives.The red dye would lower the density in the black suits and darker skin tones so he could print for the brides complexion and white dress. He started his career as a film retoucher in Germany and was very good with the brush.
    As well there is a method of contour masking described in one of the Darkroom Series Books that is basically cutting sheets of acetate and piling them on the clear acetate over a negative. the more contours piled upon each other the more dodging . This probably would also work with our contrast filters . *old beat up ones that could be cut down.*You could then control some local contrast with the base exposure
    Also one could make dura tran, dura clear and or clear inkjet masks to go over the printing easal to use as burning and dodging tools for complicated areas as others point out here. This method would be great with split printing techniques as you can then add different contrast grades to bring out important areas of the print.

    I once was asked to print a show of images of the ship breaking yards in India using only grade 5.
    The client wanted very harsh looking images to accent the imagery. We made *size as* RC prints and cut out the subject and used this paper mask directly above the the paper surface so we could print in the background behind the subject. This was very difficult to do but the effect was very powerful.
    As well as Donald mentions the Contrast Controlling and Enhancing masks that could be used in register with the film .

    All the above methods have their place and I am sure there are many more methods of working with secondary material to control the balance of any print.
    Some are good for controlling contrast and other methods are good for the dodge and burn control in printing.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie
    I worked in a portrait studio 1976 where the owner had been dye dodging for over 25 years, he used red coccine*sp* powder and dye on his 4x5 negatives.The red dye would lower the density in the black suits and darker skin tones so he could print for the brides complexion and white dress. He started his career as a film retoucher in Germany and was very good with the brush.
    As well there is a method of contour masking described in one of the Darkroom Series Books that is basically cutting sheets of acetate and piling them on the clear acetate over a negative. the more contours piled upon each other the more dodging . This probably would also work with our contrast filters . *old beat up ones that could be cut down.*You could then control some local contrast with the base exposure
    Also one could make dura tran, dura clear and or clear inkjet masks to go over the printing easal to use as burning and dodging tools for complicated areas as others point out here. This method would be great with split printing techniques as you can then add different contrast grades to bring out important areas of the print.

    I once was asked to print a show of images of the ship breaking yards in India using only grade 5.
    The client wanted very harsh looking images to accent the imagery. We made *size as* RC prints and cut out the subject and used this paper mask directly above the the paper surface so we could print in the background behind the subject. This was very difficult to do but the effect was very powerful.
    As well as Donald mentions the Contrast Controlling and Enhancing masks that could be used in register with the film .

    All the above methods have their place and I am sure there are many more methods of working with secondary material to control the balance of any print.
    Some are good for controlling contrast and other methods are good for the dodge and burn control in printing.
    Bob, while this may be taking this afield from the original post, I wanted to mention that I encountered a photographer some twenty years ago who had discovered a way to split the tonal regions of a print into three basic regions and from that separation was able to alter contrast within those regions using different filtration with VC materials.

    He went still further by retouching his negs as he determined and used specific dye dodging to turn out some very fine work...labor intensive to distraction...but fine nevertheless.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by MurrayMinchin
    Wouldn't it have to be a sharp positive mask above a sheet of Duratrans, with the only clear areas being those you wanted to burn? Wouldn't each area of sky, for example, need a different amount of burn to blend with that areas surrounding density?

    Have you done this?

    Murray

    Murray, I

    have done something that would work for this application...although not specifically for this application. I used a combination of a sharp interpositive followed by a very low density unsharp mask to blend the demarcation regions. As I mentioned before the mask would need to block light from areas of the print that one would not wish to expose.

    Taking the sky that you mentioned for instance. This would be, in most instances, a relatively even toned area with very minor tonal variances so I see no real problem in managing this application.

    Lynn undoubtedly has found something that will work. There are often several ways to approach a problem.

    Duratrans would be far too diffusive in this instance, I am afraid.
    Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.

    Visit my website at http://www.donaldmillerphotography.com

  9. #19
    MurrayMinchin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    I used a combination of a sharp interpositive followed by a very low density unsharp mask to blend the demarcation regions...

    ...Duratrans would be far too diffusive in this instance, I am afraid.
    Good point Donald...I'll have to ramp up my pondering on this one.

    Murray
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by donbga
    Personally, every thing that Ken Rockwell writes about I take with a grain of salt. Sure you can do all of this stuff but you can also use dye dodging. What I don't understand is how the dither pattern from the inkjet printer and the grain of the OHP material don't affect the print in some way or another. This just sounds like BS to me.

    The printer ink and OHP material do not show up in most cases - depending on the smoothness of tonality. To avoid it either put it above the glass on a glass carrier, or insert a couple sheets of blank film so that it is out of focus.

    I guess this makes this my 3rd reply since joining. There is so much said in these forums that I find anything I could add has already been said. This one technique is one that I have been using since Alan Ross published the basics in View Camera. I have used it to dodge areas that I could not dodge for time or shape of area. Also to do split VC printing, and to make highlight increase masks. I will be teaching a workshop on this technique in Raleigh this fall.

    Mike

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