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  1. #21
    Travis Nunn's Avatar
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    Yes, videos can be very valuable in the learning process. The tone of this thread is that it should all be available for free. That's the part I don't understand or agree with.
    ____________________________________________
    Searching my way to perplexion

  2. #22
    viridari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Nunn View Post
    Yes, videos can be very valuable in the learning process. The tone of this thread is that it should all be available for free. That's the part I don't understand or agree with.
    I don't think anyone before you has suggested that everything should be available for free.

  3. #23
    eli griggs's Avatar
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    Ralph, et al, I don't believe there is anything wrong with the rising expectations of web users for free information in all the many fields of human endeavor. Many users pay for access and sponsors of sites like APUG and Youtube know full well that providing free content promotes their interest better than tradition published media, mailings, tv or radio ever did. This is very much the norm now-a-days, the public benefits right along with private concerns and the world merrily spins on in its well greased grove.

    I also don't believe I've said all videos should be free or have condemned anyone for making money from their work, rather I have proposed an ongoing project in the hope other members would see some value of purpose in sharing their experiences in the furtherance of photography in general, by-way-of the internet, APUG and Youtube.

    This is nothing new, great numbers of devotees of the many art and craft and trade mediums do this everyday and the phenomenon of this free interaction is growing; it seems not everyone sees the need to directly profit financially or keep details of their craft restricted to paying customers and when I read negative comments about the promotion of the free-flow of information and those persons whom embrace the practice I can't help but ask myself why?

    Just because some photographers derive income through instruction, that is no good reason for those of us whom want to make, share or have access to free information to stand down. Guilds and their monopolies on knowledge are long gone and no one profession is entitled to restrict the flow of nonproprietary information to protect the income of professionals. I will also dare point out that not every purchased video will be useful, correct or informative. Those videos, free or commercial that prove their merit will find new audiences by word of mouth, online or otherwise and hopefully, others will see inadequate productions and be motivated to improve on the works of others.

    Of course, if you find the idea of proactively sharing knowledge about and promoting your craft freely distasteful, don't do it; this is all about the spirit of volunteerism and you are most certainly welcomed to move on to something that interest you elsewhere.

    Eli
    Last edited by eli griggs; 01-28-2009 at 08:59 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #24
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    Not to be curmudgeonly, but what's wrong with reading and studying? Many millions learned to do photography without YouBlub or whatever it is. Ever tried producing an instructional video? Takes a significant amount of time and equipment which adds to up to expense invested. Unless that is, you want cell phone video.
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  5. #25
    MarkL's Avatar
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    Eli, I can sympathize with the spirit of your idea, and am also sensitive to those who earn a living writing about or teaching their hard earned techniques. I can tell you I've bought my share of books and am trying to learn those techniques the hard way myself and it's a long road (but a satisfying one). However, it's occurred to me that we analog shooters might be helping to keep our craft going strong by sharing basic information as you say. Doing this helps encourage other hobbyists to give our seemingly daunting medieval analog techniques a try, and helps them solve frustrating problems like scratched sheet film during development. It's in our interest to help along other analog shooters so that they buy more film, paper and chemistry!

    Mark
    Last edited by MarkL; 01-28-2009 at 10:51 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #26
    eli griggs's Avatar
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    Alex, that's exactly what we're talking about here and there's a whole world of reading and studying being done on the web; every time we open a thread, explore a new chemistry suggested in response to a question or access data from others experiments shared online, we're doing just as you suggest, however, the discipline of study is way more involved than just the written word, as I'm sure you know.

    It's a fact that some people learn best from reading, some from hearing, some from seeing a task preformed and some can only learn well by a hands-on approach. As a Veteran, I am occasionally reminded of this when VA personnel want to instruct me how to use a new medicine or device, asking how I learn best is now part of their S.O.P. and there's a good reason for it; it's a more effective way to teach than assuming that all people will benefit from a one-size-fits all approach to "education". In the end, the only imperative is that usable information is shared in a way that benefits the student.

    You know, I think a lot of people miss something important about the internet, which is, the potential of learning has been enabled in a way more profound and more importantly than even those revolutions which occurred with the the advent of printing presses and latter, the widespread creation of free libraries. People are adapting to and participating in these new ways of communicating ideas just as fast as they can be put into action and it matters not one whit if those ideas come in a bound volume, university lecture, socratic discussion under the oaks or in a PDF or video stored on usb drive after download from the web.

    It's almost ironic; the first human learning was passed on by watching each other practice new skills, even before language had the words to share and here we are, millions of years latter, learning by watching each other online, by web cam and video.

    As far as making videos, just as not every book published was well done or useful, the same continues to be true in this new medium. Videos both good and bad will abound and hopefully, those whom try their arm at producing their own, with whatever they have to hand, will quickly catch-on to the do's and don'ts of production. I, for one, can hardly wait to see what tomorrow brings.

  7. #27
    viridari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hawley View Post
    Not to be curmudgeonly, but what's wrong with reading and studying? Many millions learned to do photography without YouBlub or whatever it is. Ever tried producing an instructional video? Takes a significant amount of time and equipment which adds to up to expense invested. Unless that is, you want cell phone video.
    Alex,

    I only seriously started taking up photography in early 2008. Most of what I have learned was from reading. But there are some practical skills where video is a more appropriate teaching tool. For example, I learned more from jbrunner's video series about how to process my own film at home than I did from the books that I read. Rather than read awkward descriptions of how to load the film onto the reel, I just watched jbrunner do it and started developing my own method based on what he demonstrated.

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P9bNcBE_Hc[/YOUTUBE]

    Millions learned to do photography without Youtube because Youtube was not available. Just because we here prefer analog photography does not mean that we need to take an Amish outlook on all technological developments. Some people enjoy making and sharing these videos, and some (like me) certainly enjoy seeing them. It's as close as many of us will ever get to having an experienced analog photographer around to help teach us the ropes.

    If you don't want to make videos, then don't.

    If you don't want to watch videos, then don't.

    But please don't come crapping up threads meant for people who enjoy making and watching these videos.

  8. #28
    Travis Nunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viridari View Post
    ...But please don't come crapping up threads meant for people who enjoy making and watching these videos.
    The last time I checked this was a forum for discussion. If you don't like what I have to say put me on your ignore list but don't tell me not to express my opinion just because you don't like it.

    You wrote "I just watched jbrunner do it and started developing my own method based on what he demonstrated." Well I have an idea. Why don't you make a video demonstrating the method you developed and post it on APUG so we can all see it. Maybe the APUG community would benefit from it.
    ____________________________________________
    Searching my way to perplexion

  9. #29
    JohnRichard's Avatar
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    I have posted several videos with me talking about my 8x10 view camera simply because there was nothing like that on youtube. Now, I am sure that I got some of the terminology wrong, and someone may have a better way of explaining things than I do, but at least I know now that Youtubers can look at my video and understand the basics of how a view camera is suppose to work.

    You can look at the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8kiRKuT60E (sorry, the embed wasnt working)

    Someday, I will make more videos that explain my understanding of different areas of the craft, but for now, at least I have contributed to the offerings.
    I hope that helps, at it is.

  10. #30
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    I'll make you a deal. I prepare and post some free videos (in addition to all the the free info already on my site), and you come over and cut my grass for free, walk the dog, mind the kids and so on.

    Seems fair to me. OK?
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

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