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  1. #41
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Hi Ged

    sorry for taking so long, here goes.

    1. outflanking method is when you do not creep up on a print density or contrast , but make bold adjustments. If you go too far you are still seeing good information and can apply what you see once you have achieved a proper starting density, MAS describes this very well , not sure where to find the info, and this method is practiced by most printers I know who do gallery work.
    Test strips are ok and I will not poo poo them here but there is a lot of info in a dark or light print and many surprises to be found.. Also over time you will be much faster in finding your balance.
    2. having the negative directly centered to the easel , lens, light source is critical . they should all be in a direct line to maximise edge sharpness..
    3. Ok studying the negative , studying the easel with the image projected, and also studying the print as it develops, trains you to understand how your negative will print. by looking you start to gain a history of how this whole thing works. I now establish my starting points for density and contrast filter by looking at the negative on a light box. By looking at the projected image I see where my dodge and burns will be needed, and in the developer I verify my thought process, so after fix I can flip on the lights and make a very quick assessment of the whole print process and move on.
    I am looking at density and how it looks in negative for so that when I see it in a positive form I understand better where dodging and burning make a difference.
    4.Ducks ass is the wide bottom of the print where some traditional printers like myself lay down a base density that is much like the shape of a ducks ass. This is done by burning in with your hands and cupping your hands in a more round shape.
    Ducks bill is the narrow top of a print where we curve in density around lets say a persons head, this shape is more pointed.
    put your hands in front of you and cup your fingers together and make shapes, a more rounded shape is the ducks ass and I use this shape on the bottom of most prints.
    a more pointed shape is the ducks bill and I use this to hold back someone's head and burn the corner.. Also you are moving your fingers when you do this so that there are no obvious burn lines as well as moving your hand up and down.
    5.How to decide to evaluate prints is probably different with each person. I print often and usually for show or portfolio and once I have established a look I go for it.
    if you follow my drift above about evaluating the scene, negative, easel and developing emergence , gets you 90% of the way there so you need only to verify your direction and move on with a simple flick of the lights and some observation.
    This is the way I work and I do understand there are the crowd who need microwaves , Good Wine, Mozart and five days to analyze, I just like to make prints.
    6.You nailed the way I work with the filters , I try to get a slightly lighter and lower contrast print with the first filter, and it can vary, then I use the 5 for contrast and setting deep blacks .
    7. Not always I only burn edges if they are required, this is always dependent on the image, but due to edge fall off on the larger sizes I am forced to do so most times. Old school methods were to draw the eye into the middle of the image which was done by darkening edges.
    8.Yes I do , for Ilford warmtone I prefer a Selenium 1:5 for 45 seconds... for coldtone papers I like a bleach sepia and then selenium where a slight warm tone in the highlights and selenium in shadows.
    9.If I am burning in a hot spot with detail I will use the 00 to bring in tone and the 5 filter to darken any black areas in the highlight which has the effect of local contrast increase in the highlight as well as creating tone...

    I hope this helps and thanks for asking.

    Bob
    Quote Originally Posted by ged View Post
    Hi Bob,

    I recently stumbled across this thread from back in March this year. It was a very interesting read and I really appreciated your post.

    I have quite a number of questions that if you have the chance to answer sometime, I would be most grateful.

    * "I use an outflanking method": Do you mean you go beyond the correct point (contrast, exposure, etc) and then pull back to get to the correct value?
    * "I am very concerned about the negative position above the lens": I wasn't sure what you meant by this?
    * "I study the negative before printing. I study the easel before printing": What are you looking for?
    * "I use ducks ass and ducks bill a lot": This was very interesting! Do you have any pointers to where I could read/see more?
    * "I look at a print no more than 1 minute and move to next exposure": I find with my printing I need to do the best "working" prints I can, go away and look at them a week or so later and then come back to the darkroom to do the final prints. Is this unusual?
    * "I do not like the 0 and 5 method only": How do you decide which filter to use for your "white" time? Is this where you mention lower down in the post that you "settle on a lower than normal tone for your tastes and as well lighter than normal". If I am reading this correctly, you try to get to 3/4 of desired tone with your main exposure on the selected filter and then blast with the 5 to get the remaining tone with desired contrast.
    * "I like to give a final edge burn to all my prints": Do you burn all edges? How much exposure do you give and with which filter?
    * "I like to tone the same day as I print": Do you have a "standard" toning routine?
    * "7. If there is a spot that is too bright then I will burn with 00 to bring in detail ( I always use the 5 filter as well to burn in highlights.. ask me why... soft light.(Les Mclean)": When do you burn with the 00 and when with the 5? I wasn't sure I understood the quote from Les?

    Once again, thank you for your post.


    Kind regards,

    Ged

  2. #42
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    First time seeing this thread Bob, it's a real treasure to be able to compare my own darkroom habits with what you are doing----very enlightening, thanks.

  3. #43
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    Great thread, Bob! Many things to think about and learn from.

    I concur with the "lith printing is all about pulling the print when the blacks look good" idea. Get the blacks and the rest will follow.
    “Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity.” - Lao Tzu

  4. #44

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    thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. Maybe it is a stupid question but who or what is "MAS"?

    Kind regards

    Harry

    If you go too far you are still seeing good information and can apply what you see once you have achieved a proper starting density, MAS describes this very well , not sure where to find the info, and this method is practiced by most printers I know who do gallery work.

  5. #45
    Helinophoto's Avatar
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    Thank's for the informaive post, lots of pointers to take with me into the dark =)
    -
    "Nice picture, you must have an amazing camera."
    Visit my photography blog at: http://helino-photo.blogspot.com

  6. #46

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    Hi Bob. looks like we have the 99,9% same workflow and the way of seeing how we like the job done. But i was curious about one thing: "...for coldtone papers I like a bleach sepia and then selenium where a slight warm tone in the highlights and selenium in shadows...."

    Do you bleach 100% and the sepiatone for lets say 40% of required time for sepia toning and then jump the print over to a Selenium tone bath? I use mostly selenium alone in 1:20 rate for 5 minutes or 20 if i want tonechange.

  7. #47
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eselmarvin View Post
    thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. Maybe it is a stupid question but who or what is "MAS"?

    Kind regards

    Harry
    MAS is most likely: Michael A. Smith: http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/index_skip.html
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  8. #48
    ged
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    Hi Bob,

    Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such detail! There's lots of good advice in there that will keep me busy in the darkroom trying new things for the next few month...


    Kind regards,

    Ged

  9. #49
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Bleach is as follows

    Potassium Ferri- 32grams
    Postasium Bromide - 32 grams
    12 litres of water.

    I will use this basic starting point- for Ilford Warmtone anywhere from 5 seconds to 1minute depending on the look I want.

    Sodium Sulphide- 32 grams
    12 litres of water

    Immerse the print into the sulphide(stinky stuff) for 30secs to 1 minute.

    Thanks to Bill Schwab on this one.... if the tone is not to my liking I will re bleach and build up the brown tone. I watched Bill doing this after a long day in my darkroom, making some murals. I thought he was crazy but once started is an amazing way of building up sepia tone to exactly where you want to be.


    If I want a duo tone then I will mix up the Selenium.
    I use: Selenium 1 : 5 and I will vary the papers to suit my desired look. I stopped using a weak dilution of 1:20 twenty years ago, as you can tell by this thread, I like working fast.


    MAS - is Michael A Smith who wrote a nice article in the 90's about outflanking when printing, which is a method I was taught and I believe most professional printers use.


    Cold tone papers generally require more bleach to get my look. I prefer cold tone papers for this particular look. (for Russell Monk series we used Ilford Warmtone,my favourite paper The bleach time was 5 seconds no more and the prints started to get too warm.
    I only go full on sepia for one current client and I am not a really big fan of a full sepia toned print, I prefer a split where the highlights tone yellow and the shadows that tone cooler.
    I always give a 20 minute soak in water after sepia toning before I go into the selenium or other toners.

    It appears some of us here like to sepia first then selenium(me) and others prefer to selenium first.

    I will never bleach and then selenium without fixing and washing the print between the steps, and I cannot explain the theory behind this.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkMagic View Post
    Hi Bob. looks like we have the 99,9% same workflow and the way of seeing how we like the job done. But i was curious about one thing: "...for coldtone papers I like a bleach sepia and then selenium where a slight warm tone in the highlights and selenium in shadows...."

    Do you bleach 100% and the sepiatone for lets say 40% of required time for sepia toning and then jump the print over to a Selenium tone bath? I use mostly selenium alone in 1:20 rate for 5 minutes or 20 if i want tonechange.

  10. #50

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    Bravo!!!



 

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