Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 68,678   Posts: 1,482,076   Online: 738
      
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 22
  1. #1

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Slovakia
    Posts
    86
    Images
    13

    Van Dyke's fixing

    Contrast management was a major problem I used to have with my VDBs. When adding 1-2 drops of 50% citric acid per 0.5-0.8 ml of VD senzitizer (for small pictures) I get nice contrast already at development stage (I develop in the tap water with a pinch of citric acid). Then, when I fix in hypo, the contrast reduces a bit, I assume due to hypo's reducing characteristics. (When I don't use citric acid in the sensitizer hypo increases the contrast but not as much as I wish.)

    What would happen if I didn't fix at all? Is the picture going to deteriorate? If yes, how fast? (If it is going to last 80 instead of 100 years it wouldn't bother me too much .)

  2. #2
    donbga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Shooter
    Large Format Pan
    Posts
    2,053
    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Mocak
    Contrast management was a major problem I used to have with my VDBs. When adding 1-2 drops of 50% citric acid per 0.5-0.8 ml of VD senzitizer (for small pictures) I get nice contrast already at development stage (I develop in the tap water with a pinch of citric acid). Then, when I fix in hypo, the contrast reduces a bit, I assume due to hypo's reducing characteristics. (When I don't use citric acid in the sensitizer hypo increases the contrast but not as much as I wish.)

    What would happen if I didn't fix at all? Is the picture going to deteriorate? If yes, how fast? (If it is going to last 80 instead of 100 years it wouldn't bother me too much .)
    Kate,

    I recommend you read the following two articles found on The Unblinking Eye web site. One, by Wynn White, covers VDB printing specifically and the second, Sandy King, discusses Kallitype printing.

    http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Vandyke/vandyke.html

    http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Ka...kallitype.html

    Wynn's article outlines the basic workflow for VDB printing. The important item in Sandy's article is the formula for fixer, toner, and toning additives fro the sensitiser.

    Your are bound to get lousy results if you do not fix your prints since the fixer darkens the image and I don't know how long they will last without fixing.

    Hope this helps,

    Don Bryant

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bezerkeley, CA
    Posts
    92
    Images
    1
    Hey Kate,

    How strong is your fixer and how long do you fix? I don’t think VDB is all that archival with out toning much less not fixing it but there are a lot of opinions on how long these need to be fixed and at what dilution the fixer should be.

    You can try adding a small amount of Sodium Carbonate to the fixer and it will reduce the bleach back but you can add too much I use a pinch (a gram or so) per liter, also if you’re toning you can do it prior to fixing which also helps.

    Happy Days
    You can't be lost if you don't care where you are.

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Slovakia
    Posts
    86
    Images
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by shinn
    Hey Kate,

    How strong is your fixer and how long do you fix? I don’t think VDB is all that archival with out toning much less not fixing it but there are a lot of opinions on how long these need to be fixed and at what dilution the fixer should be.

    You can try adding a small amount of Sodium Carbonate to the fixer and it will reduce the bleach back but you can add too much I use a pinch (a gram or so) per liter, also if you’re toning you can do it prior to fixing which also helps.

    Happy Days
    My fixer is one teaspoon of hypo powder per 1.5 liter of water. I know this is milder than it should be but my images used to 'swim away' during fixing when I had a stronger fixer. I fix for 1 minute. What is your standard fixing time?

    I don't tone yet, though I'd like to get colder browns, towards blacks, by toning. As described in the unblinkingeye article it can be achieved by a gold toner which is not available here. (But I plan a trip to Vienna to get it.) Unlike with silver prints, selenium works as a reducer. (I use thiourea/sodium hydroxide in various ratios for silver prints but never tested them with VDs. Do you know if it works?) What toners do you use?

    I will try Sodium Carbonate. Thanks for advice.

    K.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    4,813
    Images
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Mocak
    My fixer is one teaspoon of hypo powder per 1.5 liter of water. I know this is milder than it should be but my images used to 'swim away' during fixing when I had a stronger fixer. I fix for 1 minute. What is your standard fixing time?

    I don't tone yet, though I'd like to get colder browns, towards blacks, by toning. As described in the unblinkingeye article it can be achieved by a gold toner which is not available here. (But I plan a trip to Vienna to get it.) Unlike with silver prints, selenium works as a reducer. (I use thiourea/sodium hydroxide in various ratios for silver prints but never tested them with VDs. Do you know if it works?) What toners do you use?

    I will try Sodium Carbonate. Thanks for advice.

    K.
    The question of whether you need to fix a VDB print at all is somewhat questionable and up in the air since the unexposed silver salts left in the paper is very soluble in water. However, my opinion is that no matter how soluble the silver may be it is unlikely that washing will remove all of it so in the interests of caution I recommend a short fix in a fairly weak fixer.

    The greater issue is whether to tone or not tone, and here I don't hesitate a second to say that any untoned VDB print is on the road to certain self-destruction. How long depends on storage conditions but the fact of the matter is that the large silver particles, which are on the surface of the paper, are highly susceptible to oxidation.

    Toning a VDB print can be done just as for a kallitype print, and can range in cost from very inexpensive selenium toning to much more expensive gold, palladium or platinum toning. Selenium toning must be done after fixing, but gold, palladium and platinum printing are best done before fixing. If the print is toned before fixing there will be little or no bleaching of the image during fixing.

    Sandy

  6. #6
    Ole
    Ole is offline
    Ole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Bergen, Norway
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    9,280
    Blog Entries
    1
    Images
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    ... Selenium toning must be done after fixing, but gold, palladium and platinum printing are best done before fixing. If the print is toned before fixing there will be little or no bleaching of the image during fixing.
    Kodak KRST bleaches just about everything away with the ammoniumthiosulfate (?) content. I'll try Viradon as soon as we get some sun around here...
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Slovakia
    Posts
    86
    Images
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by sanking

    The greater issue is whether to tone or not tone, and here I don't hesitate a second to say that any untoned VDB print is on the road to certain self-destruction. How long depends on storage conditions but the fact of the matter is that the large silver particles, which are on the surface of the paper, are highly susceptible to oxidation.
    Sandy,
    under 'normal' conditions (framed, behind glass, hanging on the wall) approximately how long is it going to take it to be self-destroyed? (Some people are interested to buy some of my VDs and I hate to think that they pay for something that will not last their lifetime because I didn't tone it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    Toning a VDB print can be done just as for a kallitype print, and can range in cost from very inexpensive selenium toning to much more expensive gold, palladium or platinum toning. Selenium toning must be done after fixing, but gold, palladium and platinum printing are best done before fixing. If the print is toned before fixing there will be little or no bleaching of the image during fixing.

    Sandy
    I immediately ran to test selenium toning (on a fixed print) again but I got the same results as before: the image got bleached. I used 1:19 dilution (the same as for silver prints). Apart from its archival effect I want the toner to either leave the print's colour unchanged, or to intensify it, or to shift it from warm brown to colder brown. None of this happened with selenium. Am I doing something wrong?

    Kate

  8. #8
    smieglitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    1,862
    Images
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    The question of whether you need to fix a VDB print at all is somewhat questionable and up in the air since the unexposed silver salts left in the paper is very soluble in water....

    Sandy

    Sandy,

    If the unexposed silver salts are soluble in a VDB then can you explain what is causing the rapid change in density and color when the VDB print first meets the weak hypo? I always assumed the hypo was interacting with the silver salt to cause an initial deepening in tone over and above the POP image. Is something else going on? Does the silver salt remain soluble silver nitrate in the VDB emulsion or does it react with the iron salt and tartaric acid to form another silver compound in solution?

    Fixing to excess always bleaches the image but the initial brief fixing changes the tone from that ugly mustard brown POP color to a deeper, redder brown IME. I use two successive 2% hypo baths for 1 1/2 minutes each without apparent bleaching whether I've toned the print or not.

    I also note that I don't see very much tonal change in the fixer since I've begun rinsing the print in a weak citric acid bath in place of an initial water wash as you've recommended in the past. If the purpose of the citric acid is to remove the iron salts, could it be the hypo was formerly reacting with iron salts rather than silver salts in the emulsion using the standard processing method (i.e., no citric acid bath) recommended in most books?

    FWIW, I've never had any luck selenium-toning VDB which I assumed was because of the high ammonium thiosulphate concentration in Kodak's RST. Even at diutions like 1+200 I get bleaching before color changes. OTOH, I really like the effect I get in Clerc's gold toning formula with VDB. IIRC, I found that formula originally in the unblinkingeye.com article. I also use it for toning Centennial POP. It produces a nice purplish brown color with both processes. I especially like the color when the VDB is printed on an ecru paper.

    Joe

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bezerkeley, CA
    Posts
    92
    Images
    1
    Kate,

    I use a sorta heaping tablespoon of hypo and the carbonate to one liter for one minute or there abouts…I watch the color of the print change uniformly and then pull it but I try to keep it in the fix for a short time after the color changes completely.

    Happy Days
    You can't be lost if you don't care where you are.

  10. #10
    smieglitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    1,862
    Images
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by shinn
    Kate,

    I use a sorta heaping tablespoon of hypo and the carbonate to one liter for one minute or there abouts…I watch the color of the print change uniformly and then pull it but I try to keep it in the fix for a short time after the color changes completely.

    Happy Days
    Looking at the wide variety of experiences with different fixing methods (stronger, weaker, acidic, alkaline, shorter, longer, etc.), I wonder if the variability might be related to paper choice. I usually print VDB on Cranes' ecru Kid Finish but have had good results on Platine, Bienfang marker paper (360?) and Socorro (sp?) as well. OTOH I've seen beautifully exposed VDB images wash away on Arches and other watercolor papers.

    Joe

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin