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  1. #11
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Security Document Printers- Vienna 2013 Gathering

    Bob , there are 200 ink manufacturers only in USA supplies % 40 of the world. For quick reference , I am adding the most important printers list and addresses at a text file. Its up to you to try to buy their inks because I think they only do with business with heavily guarded print houses.

    Good luck,
    Umut
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  2. #12
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I have printed lately positive surface offset, I would like to try negative surface rotogravure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa Umut Sarac View Post
    May be I dont know what is the recessed means. There are two things , positive surface offset , negative surface , rotogravure , I am sorry for wrong understanding. I am starting to upload the books to your site.

  3. #13
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Yes Bob , that would be great. I started to search books for nano powder added inks. I remembered a fake dollar printers story at discovery channel , he had had been cut a small piece of dollar and sent to a ink supplier and few weeks later , he got tons of inks. I dont know who does that job , I am trying to make a pigment revealing test for an 1989 National Geographic Magazine. There are many universities around my home and need to hold my bud to work with them. If I succeed , I will report here.
    Can you please ask easier questions ? One Apug members request .

  4. #14
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Color business is difficult , when I was working at prepress 20 years ago, our manager was shouting to print house managers - they were old friends - as assholes , you need to use spectrophotometers while printing. In fact , their printers have came with automatic spectrophotometers but nobody knows how to use them ! I looked to x rite site and manual was very complex still for today when everybody uses computers and telephones. Art directors were not aware of pantone color chart use , they always want pigment color from cmyk print.
    I looked to

    Copper Plate Photogravure:
    Demystifying the Process
    David Morrish
    and
    Marlene MacCallum

    and its about black ink printing. I dont know if there is a color gravure printing book. I dont know how you measure offset plate density before printing also ? There are meters for that but very expensive. Please shed some light Bob !
    I think plate suppliers have a booklet to expose the plate. Next year , I will start studying printing press business and my goal is to be a rotogravure printer. After few weeks of holiday break , I will visit printing high school and university and collect books and notes. I love that business.
    Umut
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  5. #15
    Hexavalent's Avatar
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    If you can find one of Luis Nadeau's books on the history of printing, it's a treasure trove of information, and has references for further research.

    Just to be a spoil-sport, I have to ask what this has to do with analog photography - it's more about mechanical reprographics than film.
    - Ian

  6. #16
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I have his books , they are great .

    I am interested in gravure printing with heavy pigment loaded inks. I am separating my colour images into the CMYK negatives and printing them through an etching press.
    On the same line of thought I am also making pt pd prints with tri colour separation negs being used in register via the gum process to add colour.

    To date I have found out that I can make full colour prints by hand using the darkroom to make these prints ( therefore the relevance to analog photography)

    What I am trying to establish is a working colour process *** done that*** that has a archival aspect that is greater than RA4 , Cibachrome and inkjet. (currently doing two of these and ditched the Ciba 7 years ago)
    I am prepared to make tri colour colour carbon process as well , and at this stage of my life I have thousands of colour solarizations that need printing.

    My quest right now is to establish to myself which process suits my needs. I can do all of the three hand processes , they all involve making film(analog wet process}, one involves making a plate and using a etching press, the other two involve a wet darkroom and film.(analog) I like all three methods, the ink is the easiest, the gum over is second easiest and the carbon is the hardest.

    If you have any thoughts on which process would likely have the most archival properties I am all ears. My life is completely absorbed in making colour and black white solarizations
    and I have a timeline to print, right now every month I am exposing film and currently a lot of c41 is being solarized...
    I hope to be printing out my editions and before I start that I want to examine every possible colour process that I can do and has a chance of lasting beyond 100years.





    QUOTE=Hexavalent;1608216]If you can find one of Luis Nadeau's books on the history of printing, it's a treasure trove of information, and has references for further research.

    Just to be a spoil-sport, I have to ask what this has to do with analog photography - it's more about mechanical reprographics than film.[/QUOTE]

  7. #17
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Bob , my logic tells me , the more pigment , the more time the ink lose its color. For all oil painting paints , I can say they are not strong. I think you can contact with CIRI and talk with a chemical engineer. Their manager have 50 years of ink testing experience. May be they tell sell you an formula and give you a contact address to order manufacturing it. May be you can buy or order an banknote ink from china.
    Can you please ask easier questions ? One Apug members request .

  8. #18
    Hexavalent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    ....

    What I am trying to establish is a working colour process *** done that*** that has a archival aspect that is greater than RA4 , Cibachrome and inkjet. (currently doing two of these and ditched the Ciba 7 years ago)
    I am prepared to make tri colour colour carbon process as well , and at this stage of my life I have thousands of colour solarizations that need printing.
    ....
    Bob, "carbon process" is likely the most archival process, IF the pigments used are non-fugitive, the support is durable, non-yellowing, etc., etc., There are likely polymers other that are more stable than gelatin (even PVA glue can be used for "carbon transfer").

    Going the distance to full CMYK separations takes colour to a whole new level, in both effort and results. Not for the faint of heart! Carbro, rather than ordinary carbon is the usual route for "high-end".
    - Ian

  9. #19
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I have no issue going the full distance on CMYK separations , that for me is the easy part.

    Devils advocate now... you mention the carbon process as most likely the most archival... All of my research points out that the pigments whether carbon, gum and to the extent of hand pull gravures could use the same pigment sets, or it is possible to use very similar.

    Carbon introduces a gelatin support , the others are slightly different and in what the pigments are being spread onto the paper with.

    so with this in mind what different characteristics are in play that would make the gum pigment process less archival or even the ink pigment process less archival? Is there factors in place that I am not aware of?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hexavalent View Post
    Bob, "carbon process" is likely the most archival process, IF the pigments used are non-fugitive, the support is durable, non-yellowing, etc., etc., There are likely polymers other that are more stable than gelatin (even PVA glue can be used for "carbon transfer").

    Going the distance to full CMYK separations takes colour to a whole new level, in both effort and results. Not for the faint of heart! Carbro, rather than ordinary carbon is the usual route for "high-end".

  10. #20
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    When I google CIRI I get an investment company, who are you referring to and do you have a link.
    I would rather not talk about banknotes, please.

    Honest BIG BROTHER I am just trying to make some nice long lasting prints.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa Umut Sarac View Post
    Bob , my logic tells me , the more pigment , the more time the ink lose its color. For all oil painting paints , I can say they are not strong. I think you can contact with CIRI and talk with a chemical engineer. Their manager have 50 years of ink testing experience. May be they tell sell you an formula and give you a contact address to order manufacturing it. May be you can buy or order an banknote ink from china.

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