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  1. #1
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Intaglio Print Thickness and Pigment ratio compared rotogravure, banknote intaglio ?

    I learned rotogravure print is 4 times thicker (8um) and banknote intaglio print is 15 times (30um)thicker than the offset (2 um) print. And banknote intaglio print have 6 -12 times more pigment (% 50) than the the rotogravure print (%4 to %8).

    How that compares to artist intaglio print ?

    Mustafa Umut Sarac
    Istanbul
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  2. #2
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Good question Mustafa

    Even better question would be How does the pigment load of an Intaglio print compare to that of a inkjet piezo print?

  3. #3

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    I think it's impossible to tell, since intaglio is a broad term that might mean lines that are etched by acid, such as an Aquatint, hard ground, sugar lift, etc. Or it could be lines etched by hand such as a dry point, mezzotint, engraving, etc. Each technique produces etched lines of different thicknesses, and types, or quality. A dry point will produce an etched line w/ raged edges that will hold ink in a very different manner than an etching.

    As the plates are wiped clean w/ the palm of the hand for a LONG time before printing, leaving the ink only in the etched lines, it's impossible to know how much ink is in there. The ink is not measured, it's glopped out of the can w/ your hand and pushed into the lines. It doesn't matter how much ink, as w/ all hand made prints the viscosity of the ink, the paper it's printed on, and the style of the printer are all the things which will determine how the final print looks. An inkjet print, regardless of the type, is something made by a machine. Boo!
    Last edited by momus; 02-09-2014 at 08:46 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #4
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I am speaking of two possible ways, both using polymer plates which have the potential of raised surface or recessed surface.

    one method which I have done is the raised surface where each colour and black is rolled on to the raised surface, the ink is mixed just before printing and plate is prepared then with pressure each layer is put down..

    second method which I have not done YET is the recessed surface where the ink goes into the recess and the top is wiped off then with pressure the ink is transferred to the paper.

    In both cases the ink I am referring to is of the most light fast available.

    The pigment load in my laymans mind is very high, then I think of the inkjet prints that I also do by shooting ink through a nozzel, and from my understanding the pigment load is much smaller to get through the nozzels..

    Therefore my question which one has the possibility to last longer?

    Second question as I have no history learned of the intaglio or photo gravure process , when did this process start using colours? and how long do these prints last?
    There must be some here amongst us who have a background of ink printing and may have some answers.

    I am most interested in four colour and I thank Mustafa for bringing this thread.

  5. #5
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Bob , I will write an article with samples from my 200 000 pages Imperial and Soviet Archaeology journals collection. There are 1903 color prints and you will understand how much amazing the quality of printing that day. It is better than Kodachrome or Velvia.

    Little bit history from wikipedia.

    Michael Sullivan writes that "the earliest color printing known in China, and indeed in the whole world, is a two-color frontispiece to a Buddhist sutra scroll, dated 1346". Color prints were also used later in the Ming Dynasty.[1] In Chinese woodblock printing, early color woodcuts mostly occur in luxury books about art, especially the more prestigious medium of painting. The first known example is a book on ink-cakes printed in 1606, and color technique reached its height in books on painting published in the seventeenth century. Notable examples are Hu Zhengyan's Treatise on the Paintings and Writings of the Ten Bamboo Studio of 1633, and the Mustard Seed Garden Painting Manual published in 1679 and 1701
    Europe

    Most early methods of color printing involved several prints, one for each color, although there were various ways of printing two colors together if they were separate. Liturgical and many other kinds of books required rubrics, normally printed in red; these were long done by a separate print run with a red forme for each page. Other methods were used for single leaf prints. The chiaroscuro woodcut was a European method developed in the early 16th century, where to a normal woodcut block with a linear image (the "line block"), one or more colored "tone blocks" printed in different colors would be added. This was the method developed in Germany; in Italy only tone blocks were often used, to create an effect more like a wash drawing. Jacob Christoph Le Blon developed a method using three intaglio plates, usually in mezzotint; these were overprinted to achieve a wide range of colors.
    Japan
    Bijin (beautiful woman) ukiyo-e by Keisai Eisen, before 1848

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    In Europe and Japan, color woodcuts were normally only used for prints rather than book illustrations. In Japan color technique, called nishiki-e in its fully developed form, spread more widely, and was used for prints, from the 1760s on. Text was nearly always monochrome, as were images in books, but the growth of the popularity of ukiyo-e brought with it demand for ever increasing numbers of colors and complexity of techniques. By the nineteenth century most artists worked in color. The stages of this development were:

    Sumizuri-e (墨摺り絵, "ink printed pictures") - monochrome printing using only black ink
    Benizuri-e (紅摺り絵, "crimson printed pictures") - red ink details or highlights added by hand after the printing process;green was sometimes used as well
    Tan-e (丹絵) - orange highlights using a red pigment called tan
    Aizuri-e (藍摺り絵, "indigo printed pictures"), Murasaki-e (紫絵, "purple pictures"), and other styles in which a single color would be used in addition to, or instead of, black ink
    Urushi-e (漆絵) - a method in which glue was used to thicken the ink, emboldening the image; gold, mica and other substances were often used to enhance the image further. Urushi-e can also refer to paintings using lacquer instead of paint; lacquer was very rarely if ever used on prints.
    Nishiki-e (錦絵, "brocade pictures") - a method in which multiple blocks were used for separate portions of the image, allowing a number of colors to be utilized to achieve incredibly complex and detailed images; a separate block would be carved to apply only to the portion of the image designated for a single color. Registration marks called kentō (見当) were used to ensure correspondence between the application of each block.

    19th century
    The modern revival of colour-printing from wood-blocks, inaugurated by Whittingham, Leighton, and others, owes its full success to the energy, enterprise, and artistic skill of Edmund Evans. It is this printer that we have to thank for the delightful coloured plates by Caldecott, Greenaway, and Crane, that during the last thirty years have won the affection of old and young.
    —English coloured books 1906

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    In the 19th century a number of different methods of color printing, using woodcut (technically Chromoxylography) and other methods, were developed in Europe, which for the first time achieved widespread commercial success, so that by the later decades the average home might contain many examples, both hanging as prints and as book illustrations. George Baxter patented in 1835 a method using an intaglio line plate (or occasionally a lithograph), printed in black or a dark color, and then overprinted with up to twenty different colors from woodblocks. Edmund Evans used relief and wood throughout, with up to eleven different colors, and latterly specialized in illustrations for children's books, using fewer blocks but overprinting non-solid areas of color to achieve blended colors. Artists such as Randolph Caldecott, Walter Crane and Kate Greenaway were able to draw influence from the Japanese prints now available and fashionable in Europe to create a suitable style, with flat areas of color.

    Chromolithography was another process, which by the end of the 19th century had become dominant, although this used multiple prints with a stone for each color. Mechanical color separation, initially using photographs of the image taken with three different color filters, reduced the number of prints needed to three. Zincography, with zinc plates, later replaced lithographic stones, and remained the most common method of color printing until the 1930s.
    Last edited by Mustafa Umut Sarac; 02-09-2014 at 11:04 AM. Click to view previous post history.
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  6. #6
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Fascinating Umut

    thank you very much for such a wonderful response.

    I am very serious about the four colour process as I am making four colour separation negatives via inkjet and as well silver negatives from my Lambda76 (big image setter)

    To date we have pretty much tried every process that I want to work with. for colour we have been doing tri colour gum over pt pd with amazing success and as well I have had great progress with intaglio raised polymer plates, ( we can make these in house so there is total control)


    What I would like to ask you is specifically where would I find the inks that exhibit the century old light fastness results, and of course who makes them, or do they have to be custom made.??

    rgards

    Bob

  7. #7
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    Bob , Nanopowders are the latest toys for colorants. I have an article on APUG also. For strong inks formulas , you can google patent search
    for banknote printing inks. Its not problem to find source , it is the problem of be able to buy small amounts. If United States produces 1100 , Europe produces 700 and Japan produces 500 amount of ink worldwide.

    Raised surface is faraway less controllable than opposite and you cant load ink as much as you want. Tief- hole- druck , rotogravure process is able to hold more ink in its dots and you can control the tonal variation and strong tones with faraway more success.

    I will send you an ink book and some scans of national geographic today. I decided to write an article also .

    Umut
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  8. #8
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    What I would like to ask you is specifically where would I find the inks that exhibit the century old light fastness results, and of course who makes them, or do they have to be custom made.??
    I will answer that question but takes time.

    Umut
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  9. #9
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    thank you

    another associate of mine mentioned the fact that the recessed plate holds more ink/pigment load and has much more control
    I am holding my breath waiting for your response on the ink

    thanks

    Bob

  10. #10
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    May be I dont know what is the recessed means. There are two things , positive surface offset , negative surface , rotogravure , I am sorry for wrong understanding. I am starting to upload the books to your site.
    Can you please ask easier questions ? One Apug members request .

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