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  1. #1
    medform-norm's Avatar
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    Anyone tried this: making negs on photo paper in camera?

    Hi y'all,

    we wondered if anyone has experience with obtaining negative prints made by exposing a piece of photographic paper inside a camera and then developing it as usual.

    What we're planning on doing is to load a sheet of 8x10" in a Lisco holder, expose it according to the sensitivity of the paper (you'll need to find this out), develop as usual.

    Not having done this before extensively other than crude experiments on photographic paper loaded in a pinhole camera, we wondered if we might draw on the knowledge and experience amassed here.

    We assume you'd need to use a paper with a very fine grain for best results. Can anyone recommend such a paper?

    Will the paper stay as flat in the holder as sheet film?

    If anyone has done this process before, what are your experience with regards to obtaining a good tonality? Does it require special development techniques?

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

    Cheers,
    norm

  2. #2
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    It's something I've tried, but never really worked on.

    Figure the speed to be around ISO 2-6. You'll want a paper that doesn't have any printing on the back. I think I used Ilford MG RC of whatever the current vintage was at the time. I wouldn't worry about paper grain, since printing through the paper will obscure things somewhat, and you'll be contact printing anyway, I would assume.

    You'll probably want to print the negative a little flatter than you would print a print, but since it's paper, you can develop under safelight. Test it like film. Find a speed that gives you the detail you want in the shadows and adjust the development time so the highlights print right.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
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  3. #3
    Andy K's Avatar
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    There's a guy called Hudson Reeve who folds sheets of photographic paper to make paper pinholes. They are carried to the location in a changing bag and exposed. He then develops the sheets. The results are quite interesting. Practically a 'camera'-less process!


    -----------My Flickr-----------
    Anáil nathrach, ortha bháis is beatha, do chéal déanaimh.

  4. #4
    medform-norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb
    It's something I've tried, but never really worked on.

    Figure the speed to be around ISO 2-6. You'll want a paper that doesn't have any printing on the back. I think I used Ilford MG RC of whatever the current vintage was at the time. I wouldn't worry about paper grain, since printing through the paper will obscure things somewhat, and you'll be contact printing anyway, I would assume.
    Thanks David, I should have know you'd been there as well. What was your motivation to try this?

    Now, we won't be printing through the paper, but (ehm, well, hate to admit it) digitally scan the negs and work from there. I wanted to avoid bringing in the digital process seeing what happened last weeks. We figured this move would be a 'work around' for the issue of things printed on the backs of most papers, thereby widening our choice of paper. Ah, before I forget, we'd need a matte paper of course.

    We had not expected the speed to be that low! Would there be a paper with an ISO closer to 25? We did indeed plan a test of paper, but would have preferred to start with ISO 50. Maybe that was too hopeful - and shows how long we've been out of dark room (and dark room experience likewise).

    Seeing that we're scanning the paper neg, there is some latitude in development extremes, but I suppose it would be nice to have something that resembles a 'normal', well exposed neg.

  5. #5
    ann
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    years ago , we made some prints using Cibachrome paper in an 8x10 camera and then developed them as one would normally do with tht paper.
    They were lovely; however, a few years ago, with the newer papers the same process was not as successful.

    When i discussed it with Ilford, they were not aware this could be done, and decided we needed to use color printing filters to correct for the changes in the paper.

    this is a very common practice with pinhole cameras. check out some of the pinhole websites. Sorry , i don't have them at my finger tips, but there is some very fine work being done with these tools.

  6. #6
    medform-norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy K
    There's a guy called Hudson Reeve who folds sheets of photographic paper to make paper pinholes. They are carried to the location in a changing bag and exposed. He then develops the sheets. The results are quite interesting. Practically a 'camera'-less process!
    Hi Andy,
    yes, we've seen them before. They're amazingly ingenious little things. His URL is bookmarked somewhere. For all those who don't know this: go visit, it's worthwhile.

  7. #7
    medform-norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ann
    years ago , we made some prints using Cibachrome paper in an 8x10 camera and then developed them as one would normally do with tht paper.
    They were lovely; however, a few years ago, with the newer papers the same process was not as successful.

    When i discussed it with Ilford, they were not aware this could be done, and decided we needed to use color printing filters to correct for the changes in the paper.

    this is a very common practice with pinhole cameras. check out some of the pinhole websites. Sorry , i don't have them at my finger tips, but there is some very fine work being done with these tools.
    Yes, will do. You're right, the pinhole crowd should know.

    BTW forgot to mention in the original question that we'll be doing B&W prints.

  8. #8
    gandolfi's Avatar
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    I've done it some years ago - when I got my first large format camera (oak tree)...
    the camera was suited for glass negs so I tried negatives..
    with nice results..

    being orthochromatic, the tones vary a lot from pan cromatic negs.. if you use people, don't ask them to wear lip stick.... normal lip colour will turn out quite dark..

    an interesting observation I did - it seems that the white in the eyes get even more white with this technique.. which gives you the possibillity to make quite dark images where the eyes seem to glow..
    I've attached some exambles...

    I used plain soft RC paper, as they will stay flat more easily..
    I used old paper with fixed graduation, but also tried multigrade paper.. and fixed a filter in front of the lens to get the softness I needed.
    be aware, that that requires more light...

    have fun - it is worth it..
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails papir1.jpg   papir4.jpg   papir-trine.jpg  

  9. #9
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I am with Ann on this one

    We have had photographers use Cibachrome sheet paper in the film holder and with long exposures, different filter combos on the camera, have come up with very beautiful prints.
    Basically a very slow colour polaroid camera , I think it would work with any format 4x5 and up.
    Once you have your filter balance with all things being equal one would need only to carefully meter under similar lighting scenes
    I have a Ciba machine here for anyone wanting to experiment with this method , *no charge to test till you get your balance*. Then I will come up with a process charge.
    We only process the CPS, Clmk and Cfk papers so if you do not like gloss this would not be for you.
    CPS-HIGH CONTRAST, BEST COLOUR SATURATION
    CLMK- MEDIUM CONTRAST, GOOD COLOUR SATURATION
    CFK- LOW CONTRAST-REQUIRED FOR CONTRAST SCENES GOOD COLOUR

  10. #10
    medform-norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gandolfi
    I've done it some years ago - when I got my first large format camera (oak tree)...
    the camera was suited for glass negs so I tried negatives..
    with nice results..

    being orthochromatic, the tones vary a lot from pan cromatic negs.. if you use people, don't ask them to wear lip stick.... normal lip colour will turn out quite dark..

    an interesting observation I did - it seems that the white in the eyes get even more white with this technique.. which gives you the possibillity to make quite dark images where the eyes seem to glow..
    I've attached some exambles...

    I used plain soft RC paper, as they will stay flat more easily..
    I used old paper with fixed graduation, but also tried multigrade paper.. and fixed a filter in front of the lens to get the softness I needed.
    be aware, that that requires more light...

    have fun - it is worth it..
    Nice work. This technique proves to have promising potential, even though we'd be doing architecture, not people. What were your exposure times? Guestimating from your thumbnails and taking an ASA of 3 for the paper, we'd say something like 1 sec? Or was it much longer?

    And how did you obtain the pos? Did you contact print through the paper negs as well?

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