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  1. #21
    scootermm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    I am not familar with the Schoelleschammer paper, but Fabriano Artistico does not develop a lot of Dmax with Pt./Pd. and Kallitype (and I suspect the same would be true of VDB) unless you do a pre-soak with a dilute acid solution (for example, 1% or 2% citric or oxalic acid). You allow this to dry of course before coating it with the sensitizing solution.

    Sandy
    I found this to hold very true with VDB. Ive printed some on Fabriano Artistico in VDB and never really liked it as much as when I print on Cranes Cover (platinotype). Cranes is more delicate when wet for sure... the Artistico was alot more sturdy... but I was just more pleased with the Cranes paper. Plus, when ordered directly from Cranes and cut down, its cheaper.
    I havent done any Pd printing on the Artistico (I think I have one sheet left) but I take sandys advice to heart and will likely not bother to use the chems on it.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    I am not familar with the Schoelleschammer paper, but Fabriano Artistico does not develop a lot of Dmax with Pt./Pd. and Kallitype (and I suspect the same would be true of VDB) unless you do a pre-soak with a dilute acid solution (for example, 1% or 2% citric or oxalic acid). You allow this to dry of course before coating it with the sensitizing solution.
    I will try that. I don't have citric acid at the moment... Can I use some winegar or squeeze a couple of lemons? Otherwise I have plenty of acetic acid.

    As for the Arches Platine, which side is best suitable for printing?

    best,
    Fulvio

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulvio
    I will try that. I don't have citric acid at the moment... Can I use some winegar or squeeze a couple of lemons? Otherwise I have plenty of acetic acid.

    As for the Arches Platine, which side is best suitable for printing?

    best,
    Fulvio
    My best advice on this is that any dilute acid solution will counter the calcium carbonate, which is most likely the culprit causing the low Dmax.

    Just run it through the acidic solution and hang to dry.

    You should get decent results with the Arches' Platine with no acid soak.

    Sandy

  4. #24

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    Perhaps I forgot to mention that my VDB prints are very light when wet... After 24-48hrs drying and aging they become darker until maximum dmax achievable is reached. I guess this happens because the chemistry needs oxidizing to darken, like with cyanotypes... Although in cyanotype developing I use a final wash in hydrogen peroxide to accelerate the oxidation of the print. With VDB prints the hydrogen preoxide is useless as far as I can see...

    Today I made a couple of tests with acidified clearing baths and had paper sheets presoaked in acid solutions. With cyanotypes I noticed a very, very subtle increase of density: but I believe that I couldn't do more. The only variation I'm interested to try now is adding a drop or two of potassium dichromate... With VDB I still can't judge because, as said before, they're still too light and have to wait until monday.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulvio
    Perhaps I forgot to mention that my VDB prints are very light when wet... After 24-48hrs drying and aging they become darker until maximum dmax achievable is reached. I guess this happens because the chemistry needs oxidizing to darken, like with cyanotypes... Although in cyanotype developing I use a final wash in hydrogen peroxide to accelerate the oxidation of the print. With VDB prints the hydrogen preoxide is useless as far as I can see...

    Today I made a couple of tests with acidified clearing baths and had paper sheets presoaked in acid solutions. With cyanotypes I noticed a very, very subtle increase of density: but I believe that I couldn't do more. The only variation I'm interested to try now is adding a drop or two of potassium dichromate... With VDB I still can't judge because, as said before, they're still too light and have to wait until monday.
    The darkening you see with vandyke is due to dry down. As the paper dries this results in a higher concentration of silver metal in any given surface area than when wet. The mechanism is very different that what you see with cyanotype.

    If one assumes that your chemistry is ok and that your papers are good vandyke papers, I would have to suspect that the reason for the lack of Dmax you are seeing is a negative density range that does not match the very long exposure scale of vandyke. Low Dmax would be expected if you print with negatives that are too low in contrast because the highlights print in before the shadows have received enough exposure to print deeply. I would say that this expereience is the rule rather than the exception with beginning vandyke printers because very few people start with negatives that have anything like the density range needed, whichis on the order of log 2.20 or even higher. This is much higher even that what we need when printing straight palladium, and is about the same as needed for albumen, POP and salted paper.

    Sandy

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    I would have to suspect that the reason for the lack of Dmax you are seeing is a negative density range that does not match the very long exposure scale of vandyke. Low Dmax would be expected if you print with negatives that are too low in contrast because the highlights print in before the shadows have received enough exposure to print deeply. I would say that this expereience is the rule rather than the exception with beginning vandyke printers because very few people start with negatives that have anything like the density range needed, whichis on the order of log 2.20 or even higher. This is much higher even that what we need when printing straight palladium, and is about the same as needed for albumen, POP and salted paper.
    I'm creating negatives with PDN system. Before creating the curve on Photoshop I used a Stouffer exposure guide to determine the printing time for the black point. And I can't understand how I could get a deeper black when the true black is printed without any ink on it (it's just the fog base of the transparency sheet...). I've no problem with highlights and generally with midtones, where the ink is and which print almost fine.

    I've tried Arches Platine. With Cyanotypes is very good, although with Schoelleshammer I get a slightly higher dmax and deeper blacks (this paper is very fine to print with, although other papers, such as Arches, offer a more nice texture). With VDB I'm still disappointed. The true black isn't... "black" and is still even lighter (tried different exposures).

    How about coating and/or drying? I double coat the paper and dry it with an hairdrier (coat the first layer, dry for <5min; coat again and dry again for 5min). But I know that if one uses too much emulsion or if the emulsion is distributed unevenly, there might be puddles on the paper which result in a sort of solarization in the final print (lighter tone). Perhaps two coats are too much with my emulsion and my brush... Or perhaps it is the drying which is not good. I'll try with single coating next time and let you know. How do you dry your coated sheets?

    Thanks
    Fulvio
    Last edited by Fulvio; 10-13-2005 at 04:36 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  7. #27

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    I'm sending a test I've done yesterday.

    Arches Platine (the plain side) double coated
    Epson R2400 Digital negative according to PDN standards

    6'30" exposure under UV lighting (BLB)

    90" acid bath (actually two baths of 45" each in acidified water)
    40" fixer
    30" stop bath (water acidified with acetic acid)
    35' washing

    See all the area surrounding the color tables and the guy on the left? That's supposed to be pitch black, the negative is completely transparent on these areas and should print a lot more darker...

    Today I've tried also a single coating, but doesn't seem to be better. Unless it is the developing steps, perhaps the coating&drying isn't accurate... How do you do that?
    Last edited by Fulvio; 03-02-2007 at 03:16 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #28

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    by opposite, just for comparison, this is another test with cyanotype again on Arches (this is a bit old and I've retouched the curve since then)
    Last edited by Fulvio; 03-02-2007 at 03:16 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulvio
    I'm sending a test I've done yesterday.

    Arches Platine (the plain side) double coated
    Epson R2400 Digital negative according to PDN standards

    6'30" exposure under UV lighting (BLB)

    90" acid bath (actually two baths of 45" each in acidified water)
    40" fixer
    30" stop bath (water acidified with acetic acid)
    35' washing

    See all the area surrounding the color tables and the guy on the left? That's supposed to be pitch black, the negative is completely transparent on these areas and should print a lot more darker...

    Today I've tried also a single coating, but doesn't seem to be better. Unless it is the developing steps, perhaps the coating&drying isn't accurate... How do you do that?

    Im not an expert... but that looks alot like bad solution and/or bad coating. I had similiar results with some bad brushes.

  10. #30

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    I'm going to weigh in on this,because I've done a fair share of VDB printing-

    It's called Van Dyke*Brown* for a reason-

    What you might be looking for is Van Dyke *Black*,which I'm not sure exists.

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