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  1. #11
    smieglitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    ...but I did see some selenium ttoned kallitype prints once that were very nice...However, given the short time in the toner and the very weak bath I have some concerns about how effective the treatmenet was.

    Sandy
    Sandy,

    Did the maker of those prints have an untoned comparison print displayed with the toned ones? I have seen variations is VDB colors caused by variables unrelated to toning and it sounds as if that may have been a possibilty with the prints you refer to especially given your ending comment above and your personal experiences.

    What I'm getting at is perhaps there was no actual toning effect caused by the selenium (e.g., the toner was dead, exhausted, too short, too dilute, etc.) but rather something like a difference in pH of the water on two different occasions, aging of the liquid emulsion, length of time in the wash, etc., might be the variable causing a color shift in the prints you saw. A valid comparison where everything else was held equal between a selenium-treated and untreated VDB done at the same time would be informative. Otherwise, I think we all may just be speculating and attributing apparent changes to the wrong variable.

    Joe

  2. #12
    Ole
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    I'll volunteer to try something different:

    I'll (soon, I promise!) be printing my contribution to the alt-process print exchange soon, and I'll make a few extra prints.

    One will be heavily overexposed, and toned in very dilute KRST.
    One will be "normal", and untoned.
    The third I'll tone in Classic Viradon - the combined Selenium/polysulfide toner. I still have half a bottle left, and a VDB should need very little concentrate (and concentration) to tone.

    Then I'll post the results here...
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  3. #13
    roy
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    Quote Originally Posted by smieglitz
    It appears Huber's prints are all gold-toned printing-out-paper which has absolutely no relation to the question I've asked about selenium-toning Van Dyke Brownprints.
    You are right. I was working from memory and, for once, it failed me.
    Roy Groombridge.

    Cogito, ergo sum.
    (Descartes)

  4. #14

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    Joe,

    No, I did not see comparison prints, but the ones I saw were vey rich with good Dmax and did not look bleached.

    Sandy



    Quote Originally Posted by smieglitz
    Sandy,

    Did the maker of those prints have an untoned comparison print displayed with the toned ones? I have seen variations is VDB colors caused by variables unrelated to toning and it sounds as if that may have been a possibilty with the prints you refer to especially given your ending comment above and your personal experiences.

    What I'm getting at is perhaps there was no actual toning effect caused by the selenium (e.g., the toner was dead, exhausted, too short, too dilute, etc.) but rather something like a difference in pH of the water on two different occasions, aging of the liquid emulsion, length of time in the wash, etc., might be the variable causing a color shift in the prints you saw. A valid comparison where everything else was held equal between a selenium-treated and untreated VDB done at the same time would be informative. Otherwise, I think we all may just be speculating and attributing apparent changes to the wrong variable.

    Joe

  5. #15
    Jim Noel's Avatar
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    I regularly tone Van Dyke, kallitype and albumen prints with selenium or gold. In the case of both toners there is some bleaching which must be accounted for in calculation of the printing time.
    Toning is always done just prior to fixing.
    As for color change, yes there is some very slight change with VD, more with kallitype, and more still with albumen. In none of these cases is the color change severe.

  6. #16
    smieglitz's Avatar
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    Ole,

    Perhaps dilute Kodak Polytoner would work as well as Viradon. Although I can't find an MSDS for it, the bottle I have lists the components as potassium sulfide, selenium, water and sodium carbonate. It does not appear to contain thiosulfates based on the label. Information on http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/toners.html also seems to support the premise that Polytoner and old Viradon lacked a thiosulfate component. Kodak Polytoner is listed there as containing: potassium polysulfide, selenium metal, sodium carbonate, potassium hydroxide, and water.

    The new Viradon formula apparently lacks selenium. Its active ingrediant appears to be sodium polysulfide. (See: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...don+msds&hl=en)

    So, experimenting with Viradon again doesn't seem particularly applicable to the original question of selenium-toning VDBs.

    Joe

  7. #17
    smieglitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Noel
    I regularly tone Van Dyke, kallitype and albumen prints with selenium or gold. In the case of both toners there is some bleaching which must be accounted for in calculation of the printing time.
    Toning is always done just prior to fixing.
    As for color change, yes there is some very slight change with VD, more with kallitype, and more still with albumen. In none of these cases is the color change severe.
    Jim,

    Can you post some comparison prints? Thanks.

    Also, I regularly gold-tone VDBs (and more recently albumen, salt and POP) in Clerc's Gold Toner and do not recall ever seeing a bleaching effect with that toner. Which gold toner formula is giving you bleaching? I would suspect Nelson Gold Toner which contains thiosulfate to possibly bleach but not thiourea- or borax-based formulas.

    Joe

  8. #18
    Ole
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    Quote Originally Posted by smieglitz
    The new Viradon formula apparently lacks selenium. Its active ingrediant appears to be sodium polysulfide. (See: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...don+msds&hl=en)

    So, experimenting with Viradon again doesn't seem particularly applicable to the original question of selenium-toning VDBs. ...
    I'll be using "old" Viradon, the selenium/polysulfide toner. The polysulfide tones stronger in lower concentrations, while the selenium tones stronger in higher concentrations. So I believe there will be a certain amount of silver selenide after toning in a 1+9 solution?
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Noel
    I regularly tone Van Dyke, kallitype and albumen prints with selenium or gold. In the case of both toners there is some bleaching which must be accounted for in calculation of the printing time.
    Toning is always done just prior to fixing.
    As for color change, yes there is some very slight change with VD, more with kallitype, and more still with albumen. In none of these cases is the color change severe.
    I tone kallitypes and vandykes with gold before fixing. However, toning with selenium before fixing has always lead to staining, often severe. The issue is that selenium reacts very strongly with any residual silver nitrates left in the paper after washing.

    Sandy

  10. #20
    smieglitz's Avatar
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    Today I ran several toning tests with Van Dyke Brownprint. The prints are drying tonight. I will post scans tomorrow if I get a chance but until I can, here's what appears to have happened:

    1) Prints gained density as a result of toning in Clerc's Gold toner compared to other toners or untoned control prints.
    2) Prints bleached heavily and fogged immediately when treated in Polytoner before fixing.
    3) Prints bleached heavily in Polytoner if toned after fixing. These did not appear to have any appreciable chemical fogging.
    4) Polytoned prints appeared to have lost wet strength as a result of toning. Stronger toner concentrations enhanced this nondesirable effect.
    5) As the concentration of Polytoner increased, bleaching increased.
    6) Prints gained contrast and reduced exposure scale due to bleaching action in KRST 1+500 regardless of whether toned before or after fixing. It appears more density was lost if fixed prints were subsequently toned than if prints were toned before fixing. (I'll have to check that tomorrow though to be sure.) This was a surprise to me as I thought the bleaching would be more severe. Extra exposure could probably make this workable contrary to what I had expected. There was a color change apparent in the KRST toned prints. I think they will appear to be redder than untoned prints when they finally dry.
    7) Double-coated emulsions exhibited greater d-max after processing.
    8) The ecruwhite paper printed with less contrast than the white paper. (See variables below.)
    9) Prints toned in Clerc's toner went very strongly towards a cool purple-black color. Selenium-toned prints were much warmer and redder than gold-toned prints when wet. Polytoner produced heavily bleached, sometimes fogged prints with a much more yellow color and greatly reduced density. (If Polytoner is to work at all, I suspect the dilution must be much greater than tested today [e.g., perhaps 1+500 might work] and Polytoner should be attempted only after the prints have been fixed.)

    All were printed with the following conditions:
    1) All prints receiving a toning treatment were toned for 3 minutes in fresh toners;
    2) All prints were double-coated with the exception of 1 single-coated print used for comparison;
    3) All prints were made on Cranes' Kid Finish stationery ecruwhite with the exception of 1 print on Cranes' Kid Finish white used for comparison;
    4) Wet times were kept similar for all prints.

    Prints were given the following general treatment:
    1) Exposed for 185 units on a Nu-Arc 26-1K mercury exposure unit;
    2) First rinse in 2% citric acid for 3 minutes;
    3) rinse in tap water for 3 minutes;
    4) tone, or fix in 2 baths of 2% sodium thiosulfate for a total of 3 minutes;
    5) rinse for 3 minutes (or until toner no longer bleeds from print in the case of Polytoned prints);
    6) fix in 2 baths of 2% sodium thiosulfate or, tone for a total of 3 minutes (whichever was not done in step 4 above);
    7) rinse 3 minutes in tap water;
    8) clear in Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent for 3 minutes;
    9) Wash in vertical washer for 30 minutes:
    10) dry.

    Prints were processed in 5 groups (i.e., untoned prints, Polytoned prints @ 1+4 dilution, Polytoned prints @ 1+50 dilution, selenium-toned prints, gold-toned prints).

    The prints were:
    1) untoned print, emulsion single-coated on Cranes Kid Finish ecruwhite;
    2) untoned print, emulsion double-coated on Cranes Kid Finish ecruwhite;
    3) untoned print, emulsion double-coated on Cranes Kid Finish white;

    4) print toned before fixing using Kodak Polytoner 1+4 dilution, emulsion double-coated on Cranes Kid Finish ecruwhite;
    5) print toned after fixing using Kodak Polytoner 1+4 dilution, emulsion double-coated on Cranes Kid Finish ecruwhite;

    6) print toned before fixing using Kodak Polytoner 1+50 dilution, emulsion double-coated on Cranes Kid Finish ecruwhite;
    7) print toned after fixing using Kodak Polytoner 1+50 dilution, emulsion double-coated on Cranes Kid Finish ecruwhite;

    8) print toned before fixing using Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1+500 dilution, emulsion double-coated on Cranes Kid Finish ecruwhite;
    9) print toned after fixing using Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1+500 dilution, emulsion double-coated on Cranes Kid Finish ecruwhite;

    10) print toned before fixing using Clerc's Gold Toner, emulsion double-coated on Cranes Kid Finish ecruwhite;
    11) print toned after fixing using Clerc's Gold Toner, emulsion double-coated on Cranes Kid Finish ecruwhite. (My SOP.)

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