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  1. #11

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    Also, with reference to Mike Ware's comparison of the tone of Dick Arentz' prints with historical examples, the reproduction in his review is really way off. As Clay mentioned, the real tone of Arentz' work is much more neutral in tone, very much like the historical sample shown by Ware.

    Sandy[/QUOTE]

    Yes, I forgot to mention the print colour. And yes, I do think that Dick Arentz's pictures are quite excellent. Perhaps my remarks sound more critical than I intended: after all, it was a reproduction of a picture of Arentz in "Using the view camera" which once turned me on to pt/pd and other processes.
    And looking back, I have also used the Lipd/Ziatype process with consistent and successful results.
    I have not seen Arentz new book, however, it does sound limiting in relation to claiming to give an overall introduction if he bases his initial instructions on a starter kit and to only one method. Again, this remark should not devalue other merits of his book.

  2. #12

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    One note of caution in this discussion is not to put off the newcomer to POP Pt. Ziatype is imensely flexible and will reward almost immeditly. DOP is a much steeper curve in some respects, if not all.

    If you can get a darkroom running at >65% RH then you can relatively easily produce consistent Ziatypes if your careful and consistent with your drying. Soaking in an RH chamber is also a good way to buffer papers during a printing session to get consistency.

    DOP is undoubtedly more consistent but I do enjoy Ziatypes .........

  3. #13

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    The tonal range of a palladium or platinum toned kallitypes, with no contrast controls, is almost identical to that of straight palladium, i.e. an exposure scale of around 1.85. And you can use the same contrast controls that work with palladium, including dichromate and Na2. The color of toned kallitypes is almost neutral, ranging from warm black when toning with platinum to just slightly warmer when toning with palladium. The very warm colors that you can get by developing regular palladiums in warm potassium oxalate are not as easily obtained with toned kallitypes.

    Sandy


    Quote Originally Posted by doughowk
    If the goal is a platinum or palladium print, any opinions on Kallitypes toned in pt or pl? Sandy King has a good article at UnBlinkingEye on Kallitypes, and has asserted elsewhere that a platinum toned Kallitype is indistinguishable from a traditional platinum print.
    Last edited by sanking; 11-26-2005 at 12:44 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #14

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    Last night in a conversation with a weaver friend I learned a little bit about metallic and tannic mordents and their associated tonal interaction with various natural dyes.... particularly earth oxides... (we are actually going to Iron Mine Bay this afternoon to a ‘secret’ place to collect a ‘special’ red dirt that I may find ‘interesting’). This got me to wondering about the variations in color tone of Platinum and Palladium prints that are achieved through the classical and modern methods and the unusual serendipitous color tones that appear in my prints when using unconventional developers and emulsion additives.

    Specifically what I am wondering about is what is actually causing the variation of color shifts in the process. My perhaps mistaken assumption has always been that the actual image forming compound that remains at the end of the process is pure pt/pd metal and that the tonal continuum was dependent on the proportions of the metals used in the sensitizer... pt/warm-pd/cool and that the tonality that I was seeing was an inherent property of the pure metals.

    However, in Dr. Ware’s process variations in tonality are occurring through changes in the RH and I believe other printers are achieving tonal shifts through variations in developer temperatures and changes in paper sizing. How do these factors actually effect the visual tonality of a noble metal? Is what remains after the process something other than what I had assumed? Is there actually some iron or other complex compounds left in the image that are effecting a tonal shift?

    I ask this because I have tried using organic sources for tannic/pyro developers with the process and have been getting some unusual colors and I am now wondering if the color shifts may be a result of the formation of iron tannate or some such substance and that the chemistry that is resulting in the color shifts may in fact be a partial dying interaction between the paper/emulsion/developer combination and not something articulated by the nobel metals in the final image.

  5. #15
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    Annie,
    I've not seen any rigorous discussion about the exact mechanism behind tone differences in platinum palladium printing. But it is a fact that a warm temperature potassium oxalate developed pure palladium print will be warmer toned than a cold temperature ammonium citrate developed platinum print.

    As far as the color differences go, I wonder if it has to do with the size of the platinum and palladium particles that are created during the redox reaction? The tones of silver gelatin prints have to do mostly with the size of the silver particles. Small silver particles have different optical properties than large ones. Warm toned developers (and lith printing) in silver gelatin processes create the warm tones by allowing the particles to remain very small. As the particles get larger and accrete to one another, they become more neutral black. Perhaps the palladium metal particles remain smaller and thus look warmer toned than the larger particle platinums. I don't know, and this is just a sheer speculation. SWAG (scientific-wild-ass-guess).

    That said, I think some worker's 'warm toned' prints are warm because of inadequate clearing of the ferric oxalate. This is particularly prone to happen with printers who do not use border masks and allow the brush stroked areas outside of the image area to receive maximum exposure and go black. Adequate clearing is the big un-discussed achilles heel of the process, and the more work I see, the less convinced I am that it is being done consistently.

  6. #16

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    Clay,

    I think you are correct about the particle size... I Googled the key words from your answer and came up with this... although not specifically about pt printing it provides some insight (and some interesting information about Ag/Pt toning)

    http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/article...38-02-002.html

    Section 4 states that the tone of the image depends on size, distribution & morphology of the particles... although the discussion relates primarily to gold and silver particles I am sure the same applies to platinum.

    I particularly liked the illustration with the disembodied hands coating the paper...

    Cheers & Thanks Annie

  7. #17

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    Thanks for starting this discusion Annie. This has been a very good discussion of the DOP vs POP IMO. Have not done a traditional plt/pld print but have had my ups and downs with the Ziatypes over the last year and half. Found the comment about the inability to make two Ziatypes the same hours or days apart most comforting - since I have battled with this quite a bit. The work has been most consistant recently, with a RH between 40-60% which is a bit lower than recommended. Also, have left the paper out to breath, which seems to make a big difference.

    While I have made what I considered good Ziatypes, have not seen any others so could not say they are good or not. On the other hand I do have some DOP plt/pld prints that I can say are very nice.

    Should note that in an email from Kevin Sullivan, he advised that when the paper drys out too much that you can give the exposure a little more time and develop out the print using traditional methods, such as Amonium Citrate. Have not tried this yet, but hope to in the future, because of the different tones available with Ziatypes.

    Thanks to everyone for the most usefull input.
    Yes, the Zia POP can be furstarting - though I suspect is less so than the Ware method - it is possilbe to produce some very nice prints. That said, still intend to give the traditional DOP pld a try if for no other reason than this thread.
    Mike C

    Rambles

  8. #18

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    I am sure most of you have read Adam Gottlieb’s article with the results of his investigation of the Platinum process but I’ll put the link here in case someone has not...

    http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/article...-002_indx.html

    It is unfortunate that many of the old formulas have been lost but much remains to be discovered. I found it interesting that Mr. Gottlieb cites that ‘the printing-out platinum process introduced by Pizzighelli in 1887 was short-lived, owing to its inconsistency’... so now it is indeed certain that I shall try printing-out platinum as consistency is not an issue for me... all of my images are one-offs and I enjoy a little bit of chaos.

    I’ll also tag this question to this thread as it relates to my post above...

    Does anyone have any information on the Ferro-tannic/Ferro-gallic papers that were the invention of A. Poitevin in the mid 1800’s.... I can only find one very lean reference on the web. It involves the reduction of ferric salts resulting in deep purple tones.... I think I may have some cross-pollination going on with my platinum and it’s organic tannin developer as these are the tones I am getting... I am trying to figure out if I have two processes manifesting themselves in the same image. Any sliver of insight on this would be sincerely appreciated.

  9. #19

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    Thanks for the article Annie, it is very interesting.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas Werth
    Pratip Malde would be an artist successfully using Mike Ware's method.
    Pratip Malde *WAS* an artist successfully using Mike Ware's method, he now prints digitally.

    Don Bryant

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