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  1. #1

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    Mixing Lithium Palladium...Feeling a bit paranoid

    OK, Know that we had the thread about mixing Palladium Chloride but have been looking at 25gm of PdCl I have and know I need to mix it up....just feeling a bit paranoid and want to find out if I am being a bit anal about mixing it. The formula to mix the Lithium Palladium for 25 ml is as follows:
    2.3 gm of PdCl + 1.7 gm of LiCl, simple enough - moving the decimal that becomes 23 gm PdCl + 17 gm of LiCl in 250ml of water. But since I have 25 gm of palladium wanted to use all of it figure out that the formula would be 25 gm package of PdCl + 18.5 gm of LiCl to 272 ml of water (it's actually would be 271.9 ml). Or am I worrying to much about this?

    The reason I am using the LiCl is 1) I have some and 2) will be using it for both POP (Ziatypes) and DOP.

    TIA...
    Mike C

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  2. #2
    scootermm's Avatar
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    for whatever its worth Mike...
    I just double checked your math on my trusty Mac OSX calculator and I got the same numbers.
    I get really paranoid mixing raw chems up but then realize I need to just jump in and do it and havent messed up seriously.




    yet.

  3. #3
    scootermm's Avatar
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    oh.... and I think Im much more of a moron then you so that should appease your worries some.

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    Well....I would not say that for sure. Don't normally wory about mixing chems, but with this much $$ feel the need to double check. Plus it seems like everyone else is using NaCl, so wanted to be sure I was not going in the wrong direction (you followed me on those backroads )
    Mike C

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  5. #5
    EricNeilsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by photomc
    OK, Know that we had the thread about mixing Palladium Chloride but have been looking at 25gm of PdCl I have and know I need to mix it up....just feeling a bit paranoid and want to find out if I am being a bit anal about mixing it. The formula to mix the Lithium Palladium for 25 ml is as follows:
    2.3 gm of PdCl + 1.7 gm of LiCl, simple enough - moving the decimal that becomes 23 gm PdCl + 17 gm of LiCl in 250ml of water. But since I have 25 gm of palladium wanted to use all of it figure out that the formula would be 25 gm package of PdCl + 18.5 gm of LiCl to 272 ml of water (it's actually would be 271.9 ml). Or am I worrying to much about this?

    The reason I am using the LiCl is 1) I have some and 2) will be using it for both POP (Ziatypes) and DOP.

    TIA...
    Mike, I use slightly different numbers than the ones you posted. Based on the common formula 2 LiCl for every 1 PdCl2 that works out to 84.8 g (LiCl) to 177.31 g (PdCl2). or in smaller amounts and rounding a little, 1.2g (LiCl) for each 2.5 g PdCl2. 1.7 to 2.3 seems way off. LiCl will take on moisture so that could be a saftey factor, but still represents an unbalanced equation.

    as for volume, I mix mine to a .7M solution so that only goes in to make 20ml. Where is the harm in mixing with too much salt? With lithium I have never mixed it that far off, but with a NaCl mixture it produces slower printing times. I know those are the numbers (or very close to them) that are published Zia amounts but they don't jive with the number one should be using to be consistant with sodium or ammonium based palladium printing salts.

    It is best to error on the side of a little too much NaCl, NH4Cl, or LiCl because without their presence, the PdCl2 can not get into solution.

    Eric

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    Hi Eric, Thanks for the input. Since the only reference I found for LiPd was on the B&S website, that is where the numbers come from. This seems to be the numbers they use for the product they sale. Because you can never have enough reference's for mixing up chemistry, what reference do you have or is there another place you could point me to online? Agree that the 1.7 to 2.3 is quite different from the NaCl or NH4Cl.
    Mike C

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  7. #7
    EricNeilsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by photomc
    Hi Eric, Thanks for the input. Since the only reference I found for LiPd was on the B&S website, that is where the numbers come from. This seems to be the numbers they use for the product they sale. Because you can never have enough reference's for mixing up chemistry, what reference do you have or is there another place you could point me to online? Agree that the 1.7 to 2.3 is quite different from the NaCl or NH4Cl.
    Mike, THe only other published source that I know about, is that bad scientist Jeffrey Mathias ; ) .. Some years back when Dick started pushing his POP known as the Ziatype, several of us on the alt photo group tried his new beast. While I only used components of the Zia system and never practiced its less scientific approach to humidifying paper, I can do some math.

    If the intent is to make Li2PdCl4, then one uses 2 LiCl and 1 PdCl2; that is the way it works. LiCl has a formula weight of 42.39 and PdCl2 is 177.31. Doing the math, I just could never come close to what Dick recommends by 1.7 with 2.3. The ONLY justification I can see to use that much LiCl is that is hydrosopic or deliquisant (sp); it has the ability to pull H2O out of the air. I have seen this in my darkrooms. In Taos, when I first tried it the RH is very low. I didn't concern myself with little bags of silicate to absorb moisture, but here in Dallas it is another thing all together.

    If you are trying to make sure that you have enough LiCl in solution, it would be better not to short change that weight. It may be that Dick is simply making sure that there is adequate ions in play. I forgot his reasoning, but there was some discussion of that in and around 1995 +/- a few years. I have ONLY tried it my way the way the math supports it. I was thinking about this last night after I posted the formula. I suppose you could dry it out carefully to drive away the water and weigh your salt then. I bought my LiCl from Artcraft. I don't make prints with it as the sole source for palladium but rather as a cooling agent and contrast reducer.

    My sodium mix is 3.5 with 5 grams and ammonium base is 3.1 to 5. 3.3 would be more mathematically correct with sodium butI rarely use pure sodium chloride, so once again I error on the side of more than adequate. I had used a sheet that Tom Millea made up in the late 70's and he had mistakenly put nearly twice the amount of sodium chloride in the formula. His was the only text that I had so that was the way I mixed it. Years later I saw the correct information and it all made sense. I eliminated the excessive amount of sodium and the print speed increased as did the contrast.

    I have not had any problems with my Lithium based palladium solution acting funny or unexpected compared to my sodium or ammonium based solutions.
    I did make some pure Li prints early on just to test it. And when I use larger amounts of Lithium solutions, 25 to 50 % of the metal portion, I generally do not humidify for as long. It seems to still retain its thirst for water while in the coating.

    hope that helps

    Eric

  8. #8

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    Thanks for the details Eric. I was just hoping to find additional reference (looked on Dr. Ware's site, but did not really find anything). Agree the that the LiCl does pull A LOT of water in (I'm near you south of Ft. Worth) and have seen the LiCl pull the moisture in...bet you have too. Went ahead with the mix late yesterday evening using the 2.3+1.7 and will let you know how it works out. Sounds like we may coat the same way, because I do not humidify that long either (depends on the humidity though - have not attempted to coat recently when the RH was around 10).

    Thanks again for the input...if I can find any additional info will post it here.
    Mike C

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by photomc
    Thanks for the details Eric. I was just hoping to find additional reference (looked on Dr. Ware's site, but did not really find anything). Agree the that the LiCl does pull A LOT of water in (I'm near you south of Ft. Worth) and have seen the LiCl pull the moisture in...bet you have too. Went ahead with the mix late yesterday evening using the 2.3+1.7 and will let you know how it works out. Sounds like we may coat the same way, because I do not humidify that long either (depends on the humidity though - have not attempted to coat recently when the RH was around 10).

    Thanks again for the input...if I can find any additional info will post it here.
    It may have been the perfect time to try it both way and see if you observed any difference? You can always add more lithium salt. My normal humidification technique is to use a camber that has a rheostat control room humidifier and an additional circulation fan. The box is kept at 60% RH. Paper hangs inside for 30 minutes normally and perhaps, only 10 if large amounts of Lithum based material is used.

    I doubt you would see Mike Ware post any formula on his site using Lithium in the Platinum/Palladium process. He has pointed out some problems with the use of Lithium along with platinum.

    Eric

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by photomc
    Thanks for the details Eric. I was just hoping to find additional reference (looked on Dr. Ware's site, but did not really find anything). Agree the that the LiCl does pull A LOT of water in (I'm near you south of Ft. Worth) and have seen the LiCl pull the moisture in...bet you have too. Went ahead with the mix late yesterday evening using the 2.3+1.7 and will let you know how it works out. Sounds like we may coat the same way, because I do not humidify that long either (depends on the humidity though - have not attempted to coat recently when the RH was around 10).

    Thanks again for the input...if I can find any additional info will post it here.
    Mike, Here is a discussion about the formula for Zia, specifically the Lithium.
    Hope that helps clear up the formula weight.

    http://www.usask.ca/lists/alt-photo-...t99b/0537.html

    Eric

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