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  1. #11

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    Phil,

    very shortly: as I said in another thread, I would just about forget Arches Aquarelle for metal salt prints.

    The combination of Sodium Citrate and Arches Platine should be unproblematic. In about four minutes, the margin stain should have very nearly gone, then, after a short rinse in slightly acidified water, a citiric acid bath of a a few minutes should clear all. Agitation and developer volume are no reasons for concern in my experience.

    This precipitate is something I have not seen with Kallitypes, so let me make two suggestions:

    1) have you taken care the developer is acidic, as Sandy wrote?

    2) what sort of ferric oxalate do you use? Is it yellow or green? Do yoiu use any additives?
    FO for kallitypes i.m.e. should be yellow, with no EDTA or oxalic acid added.

    Did you perhaps acidify he paper prior to coating?

  2. #12

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    I'm using 20% solution of Sodium Citrate as developer. I pour the developer over the print & image appears almost immediately (between prints, pour developer back in bottle). The developer is almost opaque black from ferrous iron. Sandy King says in article to replenish developer with about 20% fresh - decant from top leaving the ferrous iron on bottom to be discarded. He says that, unless replenished, difficult to clear. I've had trouble decanting - seems that the iron remains suspended instead of settling to bottom.

    Btw, I tried Selenium toning before fixing, and did not see any Selenium stain; and it did stop the shadow solarization.
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  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas Werth View Post
    Phil,

    very shortly: as I said in another thread, I would just about forget Arches Aquarelle for metal salt prints.

    The combination of Sodium Citrate and Arches Platine should be unproblematic. In about four minutes, the margin stain should have very nearly gone, then, after a short rinse in slightly acidified water, a citiric acid bath of a a few minutes should clear all. Agitation and developer volume are no reasons for concern in my experience.

    This precipitate is something I have not seen with Kallitypes, so let me make two suggestions:

    1) have you taken care the developer is acidic, as Sandy wrote?

    2) what sort of ferric oxalate do you use? Is it yellow or green? Do yoiu use any additives?
    FO for kallitypes i.m.e. should be yellow, with no EDTA or oxalic acid added.

    Did you perhaps acidify he paper prior to coating?
    Lucas

    Developer (20% Sodium Citrate) was acidified with Citric Acid as recommended by Sandy. The Ferric Oxalate was purchased ready mixed (liquid) from B&S so I don't know the original powder colour. The liquid is yellow.

    I develop for 3 mins which sounds like it might not be enough (but will increase to see if this removed the problem). The dev liquid was very grey and murky after the 4 prints I made last night and was discarded. I will make up a larger batch over the weekend.

    The paper was not acidified. Sensitizer was applied directly onto the paper

    Thanks for the comments

    Phill
    It is not tradition that secures the survival of our craft, its the craft that secures the survival of our traditions.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughowk View Post
    I'm using 20% solution of Sodium Citrate as developer. I pour the developer over the print & image appears almost immediately (between prints, pour developer back in bottle). The developer is almost opaque black from ferrous iron. Sandy King says in article to replenish developer with about 20% fresh - decant from top leaving the ferrous iron on bottom to be discarded. He says that, unless replenished, difficult to clear. I've had trouble decanting - seems that the iron remains suspended instead of settling to bottom.

    Btw, I tried Selenium toning before fixing, and did not see any Selenium stain; and it did stop the shadow solarization.
    Doug

    Thanks for the comments. My dev also discoloured after 4 (5*4) prints(I only mixed up and used 300ml purely for the session).

    I will try dev'ing the image face down, using more dev in a bigger tray and see what happens.

    Cheers

    Phill
    It is not tradition that secures the survival of our craft, its the craft that secures the survival of our traditions.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by philldresser View Post
    I develop for 3 mins which sounds like it might not be enough (but will increase to see if this removed the problem). The dev liquid was very grey and murky after the 4 prints I made last night and was discarded. I will make up a larger batch over the weekend.


    Phill
    Arches Aquarelle is definitely not a good paper for metal salt processes so you should start by trying a new paper. The problem with Aquarelles is that is has a lot of buffering to make it alkaline and this intereferes with the formation of good shadow density and also contributes to the formation of iron stain.

    Time of development is not particulary important in kallitype, except for the fact that the print continues to clear in the developer. However, I normally not develop for more than two minutes, and then take the print directly to the first clearing bath. A rinse in alkaline water between the developer and the clearing bath could cause stain.

    Replensihment of the developer is absolutely necessary with kallitype. If you don't replenish your prints will stain. For most consistent results you might even consider using the sodium citrate fresh every time and then discarding it. You don't need a lot to develop a print, maybe about 500ml for a 16X20 print and if bought in volume sodium citrate is not very expensive. In any event, I expect to see the print come out of the developer about 95% clear. It is always a bad sign if after two or three minutes in the developer there is a lot of stain because it will be difficult or impossible to clear.

    The native color of kallitype and sodum citrate is not attractive, but that does not bother me because for permanence kallitypes should be toned, and when you tone them they take on an entirely different color, warm black with platinum and pallaidum toners, blue black with gold.

    Sandy
    Last edited by sanking; 12-28-2006 at 11:47 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #16
    Jim Noel's Avatar
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    since adopting Sandy's one tray method fro processing kallitypes, and other alt processes, my problems with stain have been essentially eliminated. The fresh developer for each print is a big help, and they come out of the first acidified water rinse almost clear.
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Films NOT Dead - Just getting fixed![/FONT]

  7. #17
    Gustavo_Castilla's Avatar
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    My 2 Cents
    I am with Dana on this I do my fair share of Kallitypes and stain = Ferric not cleared I use one heavy spoon fool of ETA per gallon and It seems to work for me for the record I use 10grms of silver for 250 ml water
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  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    Arches Aquarelle is definitely not a good paper for metal salt processes so you should start by trying a new paper. The problem with Aquarelles is that is has a lot of buffering to make it alkaline and this intereferes with the formation of good shadow density and also contributes to the formation of iron stain.

    Time of development is not particulary important in kallitype, except for the fact that the print continues to clear in the developer. However, I normally not develop for more than two minutes, and then take the print directly to the first clearing bath. A rinse in alkaline water between the developer and the clearing bath could cause stain.

    Replensihment of the developer is absolutely necessary with kallitype. If you don't replenish your prints will stain. For most consistent results you might even consider using the sodium citrate fresh every time and then discarding it. You don't need a lot to develop a print, maybe about 500ml for a 16X20 print and if bought in volume sodium citrate is not very expensive. In any event, I expect to see the print come out of the developer about 95% clear. It is always a bad sign if after two or three minutes in the developer there is a lot of stain because it will be difficult or impossible to clear.

    The native color of kallitype and sodum citrate is not attractive, but that does not bother me because for permanence kallitypes should be toned, and when you tone them they take on an entirely different color, warm black with platinum and pallaidum toners, blue black with gold.

    Sandy
    Sandy
    The latest batch was with Arches Platine and I am still getting the stain. The stain occurred only on the second developed image onwards so I am convinced that its due to the 'dirty' developer. I will make a larger batch and use it as a one shot and see if this makes a difference. I have both PT and PD toner chemicals (Thanks Dana ) but have yet to use them as I want to get the pre-toned images correct first.

    One of the points I made earlier has not had any comments on yet is the fact that I lost about 1.5 stops (and I am getting a 5.5 stop final density range) of contrast using Sodium Citrate compared to Borax. They look like I have printed on the equivalent of a grade 4.5 silver paper . Is this a known attribute of Sodium Citrate?

    Jim
    I will try the one tray method and one shot chems this weekend.

    Gus
    I dont have EDTA at the moment so I will have to try other things first. There are a lot of variables to play with

    Phill
    It is not tradition that secures the survival of our craft, its the craft that secures the survival of our traditions.

  9. #19

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    Phil,

    I admit I find this difficult to fathom. Did I understand you correctly that you used Arches Platine insterad of Aquarelle the second time?

    A yellow FO solution is what you want for kallitypes. I don't really think this is the reason, but you might test your FE by placing a drop of it in a ca. 1% potassiumhexacyanoferride (ferri) solution: if the drop turns blue, the FO is bad (containing ferrous oxalate).

    I have little to add to Sandy's contribution, as I am among those inspired by his excellent article on kallitypes at the unblinking eye. Just a word on developer: of course you don't want an opaque fluid with all the sludge swishing around. But I find it very easy to give the developer a rest overnight, and decant it again and again, just restocking side-by-side, and once in a while control the acidity.

    About EDTA: I presume Gustavo advises it to be added to the developer. Now I recently read in Mike Ware's book on chrysotypes that EDTA tetrasodium is alkaline and should therefore not be used in the first bath! (Neither, for Kallitypes, would I use it in the FO as for platinum.) One might try disodium EDTA, but I don't think it is necessary for kallitypes.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas Werth View Post
    Phil,

    I admit I find this difficult to fathom. Did I understand you correctly that you used Arches Platine insterad of Aquarelle the second time?
    Sorry for this; I posted my comment before being able to read your last contribution. Maybe your problems are really due to overused developer. But checking the FO also will do no harm.

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